analogue clock to midiclock ?

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Steevio
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analogue clock to midiclock ?

Post by Steevio » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:01 am

I've asked this question on here before, but it was a while ago, and the eurorack world is fast moving, so here goes again.

Is anyone making a simple analogue clock/trigger to MidiClock module ?

I know there are Innerclock Systems modules which can do this, but i'm looking for a really simple single purpose module that converts an analogue pulse to midi-clock.

If there isnt one out there, i think it would be a really useful module for someone to produce.

It would just make it so simple to sync up external devices like digital effects etc.. to a master clock from a modular rig. It doesnt need to convert CVs to Midi CCs or anything like that, there's dozens of modules to do that already, and as far as i can tell none of them do midi-clock, which i find really strange.
or have i missed something ?

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Post by ynth » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:37 am

Analogue Solutions CVM2 does this and inexpensive. Not sure if it's even in production anymore, though it reappears used time to time.

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Post by Steevio » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:48 am

the ASol site description doesnt mention midiclock for the CVM module

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Post by acidbob » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:04 am

Yes I too have been asking that question, it seems to me there are lots of solutions for midi to gate or trig.

I think you could have circuitbenders do a box for you, but a module would be sweet.

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Steevio
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Post by Steevio » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:16 am

it seems like the most obvious 'missing' module to me, but maybe its a hard one to build.

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Re: analogue clock to midiclock ?

Post by thebrotherspus » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:32 am

Steevio wrote:If there isnt one out there, i think it would be a really useful module for someone to produce.
+ one billion. Why does this not exist?

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Re: analogue clock to midiclock ?

Post by Graham Hinton » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:34 am

Steevio wrote: Is anyone making a simple analogue clock/trigger to MidiClock module ?
This isn't a simple conversion. To start with you have to define what it means and that isn't obvious.

A MIDI Clock is a message transmitted at x24 the crotchet rate, an analogue clock/trigger is any rate you want it to be. It is fairly easy to generate a faster string of messages if you know what the analogue clock means, but what should it do when that clock ceases? How do you define the difference between a tempo change, pause and stop? How long should it continue transmitting x24 Clocks before stopping and then should it send a MIDI Stop or not?

There are no easy answers to this, what seems obvious to some will be wrong for others and that is why you are unlikely to find one.

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Re: analogue clock to midiclock ?

Post by Steevio » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:14 am

Graham Hinton wrote:
Steevio wrote: Is anyone making a simple analogue clock/trigger to MidiClock module ?
This isn't a simple conversion. To start with you have to define what it means and that isn't obvious.

A MIDI Clock is a message transmitted at x24 the crotchet rate, an analogue clock/trigger is any rate you want it to be. It is fairly easy to generate a faster string of messages if you know what the analogue clock means, but what should it do when that clock ceases? How do you define the difference between a tempo change, pause and stop? How long should it continue transmitting x24 Clocks before stopping and then should it send a MIDI Stop or not?

There are no easy answers to this, what seems obvious to some will be wrong for others and that is why you are unlikely to find one.
so graham is it impossible, or just too complicated to achieve at a sensible price ?

could it not keep running at the current rate when the clock stops ?

could it not detect a tempo change and reset itself ?

for most uses that i have found over the years of using midi devices, things like midi-stop are not important, its just the ability to sync up that matters in most applications, like LFOs, delay times etc..

my TC Electronic DTwo delay will run on at the current BPM if the midiclock stops for any reason as an example

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Post by qu.one » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:41 am

Why not just go the other way and get a doepfer msy2?
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Post by Steevio » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:48 am

qu.one wrote:Why not just go the other way and get a doepfer msy2?
because my rig is a self contained machine with its own clock, i just want to sync up digital effects, delays , reverbs etc., and LFOs on my Moog Voyager. i dont use a computer

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Post by StoneLaw » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:49 am

I also wish this existed. Isn't midi beat clock fairly similar to din sync? Is there a way to convert din to midi? That would work for me and others with Pamela's wo for instance. I usually slave the modular to din, but I've been thinking of making a eurorack drum machine for acid and it would need to drive a midi clock

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Post by Steevio » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:54 am

StoneLaw wrote:I also wish this existed. Isn't midi beat clock fairly similar to din sync? Is there a way to convert din to midi? That would work for me and others with Pamela's wo for instance. I usually slave the modular to din, but I've been thinking of making a eurorack drum machine for acid and it would need to drive a midi clock
yes the reason i'm asking this now is because yesterday i received my Pamelas Workout, which was needed to replace my TR909 as a clock source (which also provided midiclock for my effects) as it was becoming a pain to carry around to gigs, btw the Pamelas Workout is excellent !

i dont think there's such a thing as a Din sync to midi clock convertor

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Post by kindredlost » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:00 am

Analogue Systems RS300

It's expensive and has menu-diving "features" but it apparently does this. I don't have one so I wouldn't know all the details. Here is a review...

http://www.analoguesystems.co.uk/pdf/RS300.PDF

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Post by Steevio » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:05 am

kindredlost wrote:Analogue Systems RS300

It's expensive and has menu-diving "features" but it apparently does this. I don't have one so I wouldn't know all the details. Here is a review...

http://www.analoguesystems.co.uk/pdf/RS300.PDF
well spotted !, so it can be done,
but yeah that is an expensive overkill for a simple clock.

maybe i need to ask Bob if he can make a simple clock module

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Post by kindredlost » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:15 am

dinsync is 24ppq and there are dividers which can do this (1/96th notes). A module from Mutable Instruments (which I want) is forthcoming. YARNS is supposed to have 24ppq midi timing which might be useful if you can figure out the start/stop trigger using midi. Dinsync needs both.

Suit & Tie Guy tried to make a converter for his Time Buffer using a little board made by Synhouse called the MIDIJACK DINSYNC. We tried to get the midi to convert but had too much trouble and gave up.

I know these things work and are made for the 808's. Pretty small and could be utilized in a module for MIDI clock to dynsync if you are savvy. Don't expect much help from Synhouse. He wasn't very helpful to us, but that was just our experience.

It is basically the same thing - converting the midi clock to 24ppq for the dinsync and picking up a trigger for the start/stop.

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Post by Steevio » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:24 am

kindredlost wrote:
It is basically the same thing - converting the midi clock to 24ppq for the dinsync and picking up a trigger for the start/stop.
i'm not sure i understand, why do we need midi-clock to din sync ?

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Post by rasseru » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:37 am

There's another thread someone mentioned the kaoss pad 3!

That's what I'm getting , does pulse to clock within 0.01bpm I think !

Have a search

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Post by kindredlost » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:45 am

Steevio wrote:
kindredlost wrote:
It is basically the same thing - converting the midi clock to 24ppq for the dinsync and picking up a trigger for the start/stop.
i'm not sure i understand, why do we need midi-clock to din sync ?
:doh: right. I'm backwards here.

I've both on my 5U system where I can go back and forth between midi, analog clock and dinsync. In 5U there are options for picking up analog clocks and cv/gate and converting to midi. Moon modular has a module and so does COTK.

Euro is not so widespread on this front I guess.

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Post by kindredlost » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:55 am

rasseru wrote:There's another thread someone mentioned the kaoss pad 3!

That's what I'm getting , does pulse to clock within 0.01bpm I think !

Have a search
I use a KP3 and have had limited success with it's beat detection. More fiddly than useful most of the time. For very short loops (which is the domain of the Kaoss pad) this works fine. I find the resolution of the midi clock on the KP3 to be good enough to make for a pretty long timing, so I use that mostly. Once the modular is running it's pretty easy to dial in a very close midi clocking. I tend to re-loop or retrigger the thing often so to avoid any real messy timings. You have to be spot-on to get it right though.

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Post by Steevio » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:23 pm

rasseru wrote:There's another thread someone mentioned the kaoss pad 3!

That's what I'm getting , does pulse to clock within 0.01bpm I think !

Have a search
i realise there's roundabout ways to do this, but what i'm looking for is a 4hp module to fit in my rack..

i'm sure there must be loads of people who could use this hypothetical module.

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Post by acidbob » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:55 pm

There are some arduino projects where this works as well, how well it works I am not sure

I want mutiple LFO's to lots of VCA's and into that module, would make some pretty weird patterns :)

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Post by Naut.Sirius » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:48 pm

I agree that this is a needed basic module, I think if a manufacture came up with a low cost version they'd sell a ton.

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Post by qu.one » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:01 pm

Ok - I see why the msy2 is no good for you...

If you have a kilpatrick pattern gen or sequencer, you can add the kmidi expansion which can do this. It just always sends midi clock, but since you're dealing with effects, could work for this instance.
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Post by Steevio » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:09 pm

qu.one wrote:Ok - I see why the msy2 is no good for you...

If you have a kilpatrick pattern gen or sequencer, you can add the kmidi expansion which can do this. It just always sends midi clock, but since you're dealing with effects, could work for this instance.
i dont have a kilpatrick pg or seq. but i wonder if we can persuade Kilpatrick to make us a dedicated module based on his design ?

a constant midiclock has loads of applications, i do a live AV show with my girlfriend, she uses the midiclock i send her to sync up her visuals. her software can sync lots of different elements to different beat divisions etc..
Last edited by Steevio on Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: analogue clock to midiclock ?

Post by midiguru » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:09 pm

Graham Hinton wrote:It is fairly easy to generate a faster string of messages if you know what the analogue clock means, but what should it do when that clock ceases? How do you define the difference between a tempo change, pause and stop? How long should it continue transmitting x24 Clocks before stopping and then should it send a MIDI Stop or not?

There are no easy answers to this, what seems obvious to some will be wrong for others and that is why you are unlikely to find one.
The Pingable EG and LFO from 4ms address this issue. Admittedly, the result can get a little weird during a tempo change, but weird is not necessarily bad, it's just weird. Anyway, a digital delay synced to MIDI clock will get a little weird during a tempo change. Tempo changes are not always seamless even in an all-digital system.

Seems to me a three-position switch for deciding what to do when the next trigger voltage doesn't arrive, and maybe another switch for deciding what to do when the trigger arrives earlier than expected ... I would have no clue how to design the circuits, so there may be other issues that I know nothing about, but part of the point of a modular system is (a) it's not necessarily perfect, and (b) the user gets to make some important decisions.

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