Two Thousand Six Hundred (TTSH) Ver.1 General build thread

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shiftr
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Post by shiftr » Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:26 pm

fuzzbass wrote:
shiftr wrote:Still having problems with my S&H... replaced the 2N3958 in the hope this was it. But it's still the same.. Sample&Hold with upgoing sawtooth. Like in the picture. Wooop Wooop.
After same tinkering with it i now also lost 'sample' and it's only sawtooth.
If this was a cap leaking or draining off, wouldn't that diagonal line be curved?
It also looks more like something is draining IN!

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Post by LED-man » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:18 pm

fuzzbass wrote:
sduck wrote:
elmegil wrote:Seems to me 10mm is going to be *shorter* than the jacks?
It is. Just got out my calipers and measured one of the jacks I got from erthenvar. From the top of the plastic rim around the threads to the bottom of the metal ground sheet, it's really close to 12mm - 11.9mm about. I supposed you could fold up those little metal skirts at the bottom and get it closer to 10mm, but it'd be a lot of work. I think I'll stick with the 12mm standoffs.
With 50+ jacks screwed down to the panel, do you even need the four little spacers? Seems to me that 50 Erthenvar jacks soldered down to the PCB should be able to bear that weight.

You need the spacer to mount the frontpanel screws...
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Post by fuzzbass » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:55 pm

shiftr wrote:
fuzzbass wrote:
shiftr wrote:Still having problems with my S&H... replaced the 2N3958 in the hope this was it. But it's still the same.. Sample&Hold with upgoing sawtooth. Like in the picture. Wooop Wooop.
After same tinkering with it i now also lost 'sample' and it's only sawtooth.
If this was a cap leaking or draining off, wouldn't that diagonal line be curved?
It also looks more like something is draining IN!
So its moving toward V+ in all cases, right? What do you get when you let it creep as far as it wants? All the way to 15V or something in the range of what is present on Q4's drain?

A test. Insert a dummy plug or patch cable into EXT CLOCK IN, so no triggers come in. Let the voltage creep all the way up until it stops. Now attenuate the noise or LFO or whatever you are sampling. Does the voltage at Q7's gate go down?

If yes, C8 is charging up from the input signal, therefore Q4 is not switching all the way off between triggers.

Just a guess.
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Post by WELLENCOCKTAIL » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:00 pm

ultravox wrote:
Nordcore wrote: Not regarding the "holy original sound" (as said above listening tests are conducted not that way ... ) but as a walk trough for a fresh build TTSH to check if everything sounds as it should:




If there is any remarkably difference (beside more or less pixie dust), something is wrong with your build.

Remarks:
The VCOs seems to have some clock bleed. (@6:10)
The reverb ( in Part 2) is pretty faint, (plus you could still hear some noise when cranked up).
The noise generator seems to be flat, w/o the humps it has with today's 2N5172. So my BC337 solution seems right.
I just did a side by side with the two video's and my TTSH thru studio monitors and the TTSH is indeed an accurate clone of the ARP 2600 to my ears. The VCO's, the VCF and the Ring Mod are spot on! They sound and react exactly the same as in the video. S&H, VCA and Mixer are dead ringers too.

What I noticed that was different than the video:
*My ADSR thumps a bit more
*The VCO inputs to my VCF are louder
*My reverb is louder (I'm using the MOD 9AB2A1B Reverb Tank which sounds fantastic)

What I noticed that was the same as the video:
*All three TTSH VCO's sound exactly like the 2600 VCO's and had the same tonality. Even while sweeping VCO-2's pulse width slider.
*The TTSH VCF sounded and performed exactly like the 2600 including resonance. And when the filter was being modulated by VCO-2... if I closed my eyes I couldn't tell them apart.
*I didn't figure the Ring Mod would be the same but it was accurate in every detail while sweeping VCO2's pitch slider (sounded just like the video).
*Noise Generators sound the same (if you use the BC337 solution)

By the way that was a good catch with the clock bleed @6:10. :tu:
...the same with mine :sb:
BUT I've recognized another thing: the original ARP2600 has a much more range in the Sample&Hold - you can hear it during S/H modulation of the VCO. I'm only able to get these high range, if I patch the noise to the S/H via the Preamplifier. Did you recognized the same? (btw I use the BC337 solution - so the now NoiseGenerator goes not loud enough to the S/H :-D)
You'll maybe need these high S/H range for crazy Rhythm-FX sounds like this:
Any solution?

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Post by fuzzbass » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:12 pm

LED-man wrote:
fuzzbass wrote:
sduck wrote:
elmegil wrote:Seems to me 10mm is going to be *shorter* than the jacks?
It is. Just got out my calipers and measured one of the jacks I got from erthenvar. From the top of the plastic rim around the threads to the bottom of the metal ground sheet, it's really close to 12mm - 11.9mm about. I supposed you could fold up those little metal skirts at the bottom and get it closer to 10mm, but it'd be a lot of work. I think I'll stick with the 12mm standoffs.
With 50+ jacks screwed down to the panel, do you even need the four little spacers? Seems to me that 50 Erthenvar jacks soldered down to the PCB should be able to bear that weight.

You need the spacer to mount the frontpanel screws...
Maybe the panel changed at some point, but the one I received in March has 4x12mm spacers connecting it to the main PCB. If it took those out now, the only ramification would be four empty screw holes visible on the panel. Am I missing something?
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Post by jondent » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:30 pm

fuzzbass wrote:
sduck wrote:
elmegil wrote:Seems to me 10mm is going to be *shorter* than the jacks?
It is. Just got out my calipers and measured one of the jacks I got from erthenvar. From the top of the plastic rim around the threads to the bottom of the metal ground sheet, it's really close to 12mm - 11.9mm about. I supposed you could fold up those little metal skirts at the bottom and get it closer to 10mm, but it'd be a lot of work. I think I'll stick with the 12mm standoffs.
With 50+ jacks screwed down to the panel, do you even need the four little spacers? Seems to me that 50 Erthenvar jacks soldered down to the PCB should be able to bear that weight.
Yes I agree, the standoffs really aren't necessary in the end.

Just tried adding some washers to the 10mm standoff.
Seems to work.

Image

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Post by diablojoy » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:58 am

Hmm I used 10mm standoffs but I cut all the spacer tabs on the jacks down
to suit.
this helped with the slide switches height and the only reason I did that way
yeah the standoffs really aren't needed but I didn't want 4 empty screw holes
in the panel
It probably wont happen today but if it does it definitely wont go smoothly.

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Post by ultravox » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:11 am

WELLENCOCKTAIL wrote: BUT I've recognized another thing: the original ARP2600 has a much more range in the Sample&Hold - you can hear it during S/H modulation of the VCO. I'm only able to get these high range, if I patch the noise to the S/H via the Preamplifier. Did you recognized the same? (btw I use the BC337 solution - so the now NoiseGenerator goes not loud enough to the S/H :-D)
You'll maybe need these high S/H range for crazy Rhythm-FX sounds like this:
Any solution?
Hi, I haven't noticed this issue in the S/H range while using white noise. If I raise the S/H Level slider and VCO S/H Out slider to maximum the pitch really gets up there. It also seems the pitch has more noticeable range when using a square wave. The YouTube patch seems to have a lot going on including ring mod so maybe that accounts for the highest pitch? Have you tried patching it up to see what you get?

As far as I know the noise level shouldn't change by using the BC337 and 1K/10K resistor combination (I can't remember which one).

@shiftr - I also had the same problem you're having with rising voltage in S/H. I changed everything (the cap, semiconductors and the LM301's) and it didn't get better. Then I gave the S/H section a good cleaning (both sides of the board) and it got somewhat better. Then I cleaned it again and again and it got better and better. Then after drying it with my hot air station the S/H became rock solid (even at the slowest clock speed). Try giving it a good cleaning and let it thoroughly dry before testing.

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Post by WELLENCOCKTAIL » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:16 am

ultravox wrote:
WELLENCOCKTAIL wrote: BUT I've recognized another thing: the original ARP2600 has a much more range in the Sample&Hold - you can hear it during S/H modulation of the VCO. I'm only able to get these high range, if I patch the noise to the S/H via the Preamplifier. Did you recognized the same? (btw I use the BC337 solution - so the now NoiseGenerator goes not loud enough to the S/H :-D)
You'll maybe need these high S/H range for crazy Rhythm-FX sounds like this:
Any solution?
Hi, I haven't noticed this issue in the S/H range while using white noise. If I raise the S/H Level slider and VCO S/H Out slider to maximum the pitch really gets up there. It also seems the pitch has more noticeable range when using a square wave. The YouTube patch seems to have a lot going on including ring mod so maybe that accounts for the highest pitch? Have you tried patching it up to see what you get?

As far as I know the noise level shouldn't change by using the BC337 and 1K/10K resistor combination (I can't remember which one).
Yes - I've tried the patch of this video (it's more distorted than mine)
[video][/video]
I've only got nearly the same sound, if I patch the noise thru the Preamplifier to the Sample&Hold. Without this I didn't get the deep crackle sounds… I've made a video - only with mobile phone (there you hear the sound with & without the noise thru Preamlifier-patch). Did YOU've tried the patch? ;-)
Here's my video - from 17 to 28 seconds the Sample/Hold works without patching, the rest is with the louder noise to the S/H.
[video][/video]

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Post by sduck » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:00 am

fuzzbass wrote: Maybe the panel changed at some point, but the one I received in March has 4x12mm spacers connecting it to the main PCB. If it took those out now, the only ramification would be four empty screw holes visible on the panel. Am I missing something?
Well, yeah. There are 5 spacers. 3 on top, 2 on the bottom.

And yes, they're not really needed, but they're handy at several points during construction, and they're already there, so why not leave them? At least they give you a thing to attach some screws to to fill the holes in the panel.

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Post by ultravox » Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:45 pm

WELLENCOCKTAIL wrote:
ultravox wrote:
WELLENCOCKTAIL wrote: BUT I've recognized another thing: the original ARP2600 has a much more range in the Sample&Hold - you can hear it during S/H modulation of the VCO. I'm only able to get these high range, if I patch the noise to the S/H via the Preamplifier. Did you recognized the same? (btw I use the BC337 solution - so the now NoiseGenerator goes not loud enough to the S/H :-D)
You'll maybe need these high S/H range for crazy Rhythm-FX sounds like this:
Any solution?
Hi, I haven't noticed this issue in the S/H range while using white noise. If I raise the S/H Level slider and VCO S/H Out slider to maximum the pitch really gets up there. It also seems the pitch has more noticeable range when using a square wave. The YouTube patch seems to have a lot going on including ring mod so maybe that accounts for the highest pitch? Have you tried patching it up to see what you get?

As far as I know the noise level shouldn't change by using the BC337 and 1K/10K resistor combination (I can't remember which one).
Yes - I've tried the patch of this video (it's more distorted than mine)
[video][/video]
I've only got nearly the same sound, if I patch the noise thru the Preamplifier to the Sample&Hold. Without this I didn't get the deep crackle sounds… I've made a video - only with mobile phone (there you hear the sound with & without the noise thru Preamlifier-patch). Did YOU've tried the patch? ;-)
Here's my video - from 17 to 28 seconds the Sample/Hold works without patching, the rest is with the louder noise to the S/H.
[video][/video]
I won't be able to tryout the patch until Sept 20th, had to fly out of the country on business yesterday. So I can only armchair quarterback until then. :hihi:

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Post by shiftr » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:04 pm

ultravox wrote: @shiftr - I also had the same problem you're having with rising voltage in S/H. I changed everything (the cap, semiconductors and the LM301's) and it didn't get better. Then I gave the S/H section a good cleaning (both sides of the board) and it got somewhat better. Then I cleaned it again and again and it got better and better. Then after drying it with my hot air station the S/H became rock solid (even at the slowest clock speed). Try giving it a good cleaning and let it thoroughly dry before testing.
Thanks for the tip. I actually already started cleaning the board vert carefully. I think you might be right that this is the cause. But while tinkering things got worse now and the S&H is not sampling but only doing upgoing saw tooth. I'm suspecting 2n4392 now.
In the meanwhile i managed to get the filter working and i tested the spring reverb which also works. So i'm getting really happy with it.
The filter wasn't working because of a bad 3906. But it was working before because i matched them all.

Could it be that i broke all kind of transistors because my self made MTA100 power cables were initially really bad? Flickering and sparkling with the power..?? :hmm:

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Post by sduck » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:50 pm

Those transistors are fairly robust to electrical surges. But what can kill them is too much heat when soldering them.

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Post by jflower » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:36 pm

Is anyone else building a unit without amplifiers? I'd like to keep it as low profile as possible. I'm guessing I can just leave everything out but take care of the LED ground. I admit I haven't done my homework with the schematics yet, but I can't believe I'm the only one wishing to leave the amps out...

cheers
jf

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Post by sduck » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:36 pm

I'd advise making sure that the next owner would be able to build up the amps if they wanted to, although that's not really a big problem. It will affect the resale value to have them missing.

By low profile do you mean physically or electrically? Yes, those big caps and the heat sinks are huge compared to the rest of the parts. Electrically - maybe - but if you're not going to use them you could just unplug them. Don't know how that would affect the leds though.

As far as this entire build goes, the amps are a relatively small part of the whole deal - building them up even if you're not going to use them shouldn't be a deal breaker. But it's your build, do as you want!

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Post by jflower » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:13 pm

Sduck:

Yeah, I meant physically low profile. I had planned on housing this in a suitcase for performance. Take away the heatsinks and huge amp capacitors and it fits in the lid, leaving the bottom for other noisemakers.

I still may put it in a wooden box for the studio, not sure though.

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Post by Nordcore » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:11 pm

I cut down the heatsinks to about half high and used smaller (470uF) caps. (as it is for 8 Ohm speakers, and some more bass roll off is really welcome to protect them from excessive cone excursion... )
Results in about 20mm build height.

Except for the LED ground (could be circumvented by "creative" resistor mounting, there is a fitting ground hole next to it...) there is nothing to obey when leaving of the amps.

You might want to keep the speaker amps as headphone amps. (The intended wiring where the headphone jack is supplied from the 100k fader doesn't work in a usable way!)

There are some relative flat speakers ( Visaton SC 5.9 ND ), but they won't fit the mounting holes. (... make some plywood adapters... )

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Post by elmegil » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:02 pm

Good news: jacks and sliders done, LEDs work, basic things make noise as expected through the normal chain (tested VCOs, noise, ring mod, filter, S&H, EG, amplifier).

Bad news: all three VCOs bleed into each other, and the clock bleeds into them--despite having the voltage regulator. The noise has a high pitched constant note in it.

Mitigating factors: I haven't calibrated ANYTHING -- I did set the Voltage Regulator to 14.6V when it had no load, but I haven't adjusted it since, so I'm hoping that's (at least part of) the issue.....

Still to do: all the internal wiring, setting up the MIDI and gate booster PCBs, speakers, reverb, headphone jack.... The latter is going to be a while, I didn't read the BOM closely enough to recognize that the switchcraft jack was a stereo jack for headphones, so I took that part off my order. But I can just jumper the connections and still use the speakers.

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Post by Nordcore » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:27 pm

You have left open the CV input for the VCOs.
(Put a jumper on the pins labelled KBD-CV or solder in a jumper wire at the power supply section where it is marked with "jumper while building" )

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Post by elmegil » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:14 am

let me verify, but I have had a jumper on there.... on the other hand it hasn't had the easiest time of it, sticking out like it does. Perhaps I have damaged the header.....

Edit: Good call :tu:

The jumper was there, but I don't think it was making good contact. I reseated it, also recalibrated the regulator (negative supply was at -14.8, not sure if that would be a cause, but while I was there....), and all seems peachy now. Thanks :-D

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Post by shiftr » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:48 am

Nordcore wrote:You have left open the CV input for the VCOs.
(Put a jumper on the pins labelled KBD-CV or solder in a jumper wire at the power supply section where it is marked with "jumper while building" )
Does it still need the jumper after the Jacks are in place? Do you need to use a plug connected to ground when not using a CV input?

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Post by Nordcore » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:26 am

The input jack should be normalized to ground.
(The panel does not have this input jack, the CV jack on the board is for CV out. See wiring diagram in "finishing" part of build documentation. )

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Post by latigid on » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:19 am

I'm also planning to leave out the speakers at the moment, perhaps the amplifiers as well as I can monitor via another mixer. Might make some room for neato mods!

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Post by WELLENCOCKTAIL » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:23 pm

First try - all sounds TTSH :hyper:

[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/165344003" params="color=ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false" width="100%" height="166" iframe="true" /]

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Post by jondent » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:44 pm

jflower wrote:Is anyone else building a unit without amplifiers? I'd like to keep it as low profile as possible. I'm guessing I can just leave everything out but take care of the LED ground. I admit I haven't done my homework with the schematics yet, but I can't believe I'm the only one wishing to leave the amps out...

cheers
jf
I'm adding the amps for now though plan to remove these later to make way for mods. Good luck with your build. :tu:

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