Madrona Labs: Kaivo ~ physical modeling modular synthesizer

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_seph
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Madrona Labs: Kaivo ~ physical modeling modular synthesizer

Post by _seph »

a brief preview yesterday at the DecibelFest ... begins near the 30 minute mark~ http://decibel.hosted.panopto.com/Panop ... 23fe8e9a92

for the last couple months I've been eagerly awaiting news on this with baited breath and unfortunately I'll need to wait a bit longer for an actual demo.

on twitter-
"@madronalabs ...Did some demos in the green room. Will post video soonish"
"@madronalabs ...It was hectic! But good. I showed the physical models to some folks and they didn’t even blow up. Much. Plan to ship in 6-8 wks."

Aalto quickly turned into one of my favorite instruments, software or otherwise and the thought of that approach being applied to physical modeling.. :love:

anyway, Korg's Prophecy was my second synth and although it was initially over my head, physical modeling would eventually became a favorite of mine but sadly it was essentially left in the 90's and we have yet to really see much of anything like a second generation, until now, and coming from Randy I couldn't be more excited :hyper:
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Kent
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Post by Kent »

I'm glad to hear of progress on this front.

Like you, I dove pretty deeply into Korg's PM synths. My experience was via the Oasys PCI card. I still have it sitting in a dedicated G4 Mac but haven't fired it up in at least 3 years, maybe more.

It certainly would be lovely to have a modern method of approaching this as sculpted by the mindset of Madrona Labs.
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Post by Sinewaves »

Thanks for this, excited to hear it. I was never really aware of physical modelling until I heard about this project. What are the physical models he is referring to?
Last edited by Sinewaves on Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ignatius »

physical modeling synth fed by a granulator! i'm in!
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Post by infradead »

they need to do something at the synthmeet next month!
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Post by JeshuaW »

Nice, I'll be a day one owner for sure. I held off on getting AAS Chromaphone for this.
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Post by Hainbach »

I never liked physical modelling, except for resonators. Maybe this may change that.
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Post by ignatius »

Hainbach wrote:I never liked physical modelling, except for resonators. Maybe this may change that.
i suspect it'll be a bit different than the typical physical modeling things just because it's from Randy and the simple fact that it includes granulator to feed to the physical modeling things. i can't wait to see how these things interact and how it expands the possibilities.
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Post by Noise for Fiction »

Physical modelling is synth technique that models behaviour of physical objects,plucking string or hitting drum etc.It is mimicing acoustical instruments so that you can "build" or edit parameters to make weird new instruments and very organic sounding patches.It is not sample based.
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Post by ignatius »

Noise for Fiction wrote:Physical modelling is synth technique that models behaviour of physical objects,plucking string or hitting drum etc.It is mimicing acoustical instruments so that you can "build" or edit parameters to make weird new instruments and very organic sounding patches.It is not sample based.
yes we know.

in the video linked in this thread, Randy says the models are fed by a granulator.

that's all i was getting at. :tu:
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Post by secretkillerofnames »

:sb: :yay: :love:
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Post by madronalabs »

Yeah, the whole lack of time in the panel was kind of a bummer, but I got to demo for around 10 people in the green room afterwards, so that was nice. I'm gonna give myself a couple of days to rest and enjoy Decibel fest, and get inspired by music (Oren Ambarchi! The Sight Below! John Tejada!), then I'll post a preview of some kind next week.
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Post by ignatius »

have a good time at DB! recharge the batteries as they say...

can't wait to hear what you're up to.
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Post by Nelson Baboon »

I used to think that the idea of physical modeling was pretty cool, but it doesn't excite me much now, though I think a lot of Randy. But I just don't get into the idea of synthesizers emulating things these days. Why should a device for generating sound emulate physical objects?
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Post by mckenic »

Im with you there - Im much more interested in the strange sounds possible with PM than emulating physical instruments... and as you say if Randy is doing it, its gonna be killer!

If its 1/2 as fun and inspirational as Aalto, its an instant purchase for me!
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Post by Nelson Baboon »

yeah - I don't like it as a concept, but I suspect I will like it in its actuality, and that it will join my aalto and soundplane....
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Post by a scanner darkly »

Yeah, with the concept of physical modeling what excites me most is things that would be hard to actually implement as physical objects IRL. What would a 10ft flute sound like etc.

Still, very curious as its coming from Randy. And Soundplane changes things somewhat, I think. A physical instrument emulation that is still tied so much to the actual physical stimulation of playing an instrument but in the way that wasn't possible before.

Have anybody tried Tassman? I never made enough effort to learn its interface but always felt like I'm missing out on some interesting things because of that.
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Post by ignatius »

for the 3rd time.. did you guys miss the part of the video where he says it's fed by a GRANULATOR???

seems hardly typical physical modeling scenario. :despair:

anyway.. as always i reserve judgement until i hear thing.


but i'll join the chorus and say i'm not really interested in emulating things.. though i've gotten some pretty fucked up steel drum sounds out of Aalto :)

and also.. as someone already said.. there are non-emulative type sounds that come from PM synths... sculpture in Logic is capable of a lot of really weird shit for example.

all the weird scraping metal sounds.. hollow weird bowed resonance..

but you guys know it's OK to use things in a different way then the designer maybe imagined right? :razz:
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Post by Nelson Baboon »

don't understand this post at all.

Seems like we agree, yet you are somehow incredulous that someone would post that the notion of 'physical modeling' isn't exciting.
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Post by ignatius »

Nelson Baboon wrote:don't understand this post at all.

Seems like we agree, yet you are somehow incredulous that someone would post that the notion of 'physical modeling' isn't exciting.
i was trying to be snarky and ridiculous so we could fight.

but srsly.. physical modeling + granulator seems interesting to me..

but i'm generally confused and shouldn't be on the internet.
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Post by Nelson Baboon »

I'm sure that in practice it will be really interesting, as Aalto is....

but the whole notion of physical modeling is to model, isn't it? That was what I was calling into question, with the disclaimer that despite this conceptual quibble, it will likely be very interesting as a sound generator.
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Post by ignatius »

yeah sure.. the combinations of the various resonators and exciters etc are what i'm interested in.. and of course the ranges of the associated parameters.

i'm really curious how the granulator is incorporated here. it could really make for a dynamic instrument.

i'm sure he learned a lot from making Aalto. it'll be interesting to see how that spills over into this new thing.
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Post by secretkillerofnames »

a scanner darkly wrote: Have anybody tried Tassman? I never made enough effort to learn its interface but always felt like I'm missing out on some interesting things because of that.
Yep - it's awesome. But i've never been able to get anything good out of it myself. One of the few synths I actually use (and like) the presets for.
It helps if you shell out for Himalaya and Harm Visser libraries as they sound amazing.

It looks like this has the same interface as Aalto which might streamline stuff. Half the problem with Tassman is how sensitive it is to plugging inappropriate values leading to awful overloading.
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Post by ignatius »

tassman sounds great. the GUI is horrible and has a lot of issues. bouncing back and forth between the 2 windows is annoying as hell.. and the fact that all the cables overlap and make for thick rivers of cables on top of each other is just disruptive when trying to figure out what's going on.

it does sound good though. i love the resonators in it.. makes for really nice FX processors as well.

it does a lot of things well.. as far as sound goes.. it's just no fun to use imo.

i nag them every so often about updating it and they always say it's in the works but have no idea when it'll show up.

also, if you use logicX it's worth mentioning that the AU of tassman is not 64 bit and therefore you cannot use it in logic pro X.. no big deal if that's not your host of choice.

tassman is so inexpensive it's kind of a no brainer.. i've seen it for $80 used on kvr and AAS has the sale every so often and sell it for $99.
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Post by _seph »

secretkillerofnames wrote:...Half the problem with Tassman is how sensitive it is to plugging inappropriate values leading to awful overloading.
and the other half is AAS with the current version of Tassman now nearing its 10th anniversary and no update in sight. at this point I'm surprised that Ableton hasn't acquired them as I would think that AAS's primary revenue is coming from their instruments bundled in the Live Suite. actually there is nothing that I would rather see than if Tassman were to be worked into the Live environment, especially as this would largely counter the modular architecture that BitWig is touting, but Tassman integrated into all that is presently Live would be a dream come true and at this point also the only way that I would consider putting any money towards Tassman.
Nelson Baboon wrote:I'm sure that in practice it will be really interesting, as Aalto is....

but the whole notion of physical modeling is to model, isn't it? That was what I was calling into question, with the disclaimer that despite this conceptual quibble, it will likely be very interesting as a sound generator.
but looking at it that way is much like limiting sampling to simply capturing loops or basic instrumental multisamples while ignoring the immense sound design and synthesis potential of it.

although physical modeling is essentially models of "real" things, it is still synthesis and even if you only ever used it to have a virtual saxophone, the thing I find most interesting is that it is still very synthetic. for me the appeal comes from that place where it is becomes muddled between what is acoustic and what is synthetic, much like how dreams are very real except that they're not.

anyway, here's several demos I've found that show some of physical modeling's potential~

first, there is Yamaha's classic VL1, this demo starts off much as I'm sure you'd expect but jump ahead to 1:20 for a better example of what I'm getting at
[video][/video]

Korg's MOSS engine goes beyond basic physical modeling, but this 2 part Jexus demo of a Z1 offers a good taste of its ability
[video][/video]

and the Technics WSA1 was a bit of a different approach but it is still relevant and an underrated favorite of mine. this demo is pretty great
http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/64741092

and that said, I doubt that Kaivo is going to be at all comparable to these. I cannot understate how excited I am to see the direction that Madrona Labs have taken this ...waiting for that demo is going to be an exercise in patience.
Last edited by _seph on Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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