Stackcables question: can they receive input?

[starmandeluxe]

I just got a couple of stackcables (my first ones), and they work nicely to duplicate outputs, but they don't seem to be able to receive "stacked" input, e.g. adding an additional cv signal for modulation. Is this possible? Am I expecting something physically (electrically) impossible?

[Rigo]

There *might* be situations that you could use stackcables to combine inputs but their intended use is to split outputs ...

[ersatzplanet]

There should be no reason electronically or physically why a stacking cable would not mix a signal put to the jack, out the plug it was inserted in. There are no active components or electronics in the cable, it is just wires and jacks.

[z3r01]

There's some info in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=1117517&sid=69a1e76db0d ... 47b06d1b4f

The thing about it is that there isn't anything concrete about whether can it be used to mix at inputs, or not. It has been mentioned that using stackcables to mix may result in slow burn out or damage, but I am not aware if anyone actually destroyed a module, in the process of doing so. So, the only advice I can give is, proceed with caution.

[saemola]

There's some info in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=1117517&sid=69a1e76db0d ... 47b06d1b4f

The thing about it is that there isn't anything concrete about whether can it be used to mix at inputs, or not. It has been mentioned that using stackcables to mix may result in slow burn out or damage, but I am not aware if anyone actually destroyed a module, in the process of doing so. So, the only advice I can give is, proceed with caution.

really?
I sure hope it's a urban legend...! shouldn't the input signal just clip at one point?
I am assuming stacking inputs should be fine with non overlapping signals though, right?

[Mungo]

There's some info in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=1117517&sid=69a1e76db0d ... 47b06d1b4f

The thing about it is that there isn't anything concrete about whether can it be used to mix at inputs, or not. It has been mentioned that using stackcables to mix may result in slow burn out or damage

Trying to mix outputs using direct multiples (or y cables) is very wrong, here is a link to the very well presented Rane Note:
http://rane.com/note109.html

For those who cant get through the technical detail think about it this way:
Outputs move things, like tractors tow things.
One output can move things around and the things follow (but not quite exactly as the tow rope stretches and moves its self)
Two outputs trying to move the same thing will fight, the strongest one will have more influence but not complete control.

Iff the two outputs are equally strong then they will each have the same influence. But they will both be working hard to move the other wasting energy/work/effort.

Here is the rule: Outputs are low impedance and must only be connected to high impedance inputs -- never, never tie two outputs directly together -- never. If you do, then each output tries to drive the very low impedance of the other, forcing both outputs into current-limit and possible damage. As a minimum, severe signal loss results.

[hanerlend]

I just got a couple of stackcables (my first ones), and they work nicely to duplicate outputs, but they don't seem to be able to receive "stacked" input, e.g. adding an additional cv signal for modulation. Is this possible? Am I expecting something physically (electrically) impossible?

It is not really the cable itself that's the problem. What you're doing is you're connecting one output to another output, and that might not give the results you expected. With a mixer the signal flows in one direction, from outputs to inputs. With a passive mult (stackcables) the output signal doesn't "know" that it's supposed to go to the inputs so it might also try to go to the other output. It follows the path of least resistance.

What Mungo said.

And get a mixer.

-han

[jnlkrt]

double post

[jnlkrt]

you can use them as an OR gate to mix the logic outputs of any Make Noise modul due to their special electric configuration. other than that, i have not heard of any modules you should do it with.

[saemola]

is the same true for gate signals?
I see so often people connecting multiple clocks, envelopes, LFOs (or other CV sources) to inputs of gates, VCAs, ecc...
are you actually supposed to use a mixer for that too?
would a unity mixer work?

[jbartee]

is the same true for gate signals?
I see so often people connecting multiple clocks, envelopes, LFOs (or other CV sources) to inputs of gates, VCAs, ecc...
are you actually supposed to use a mixer for that too?
would a unity mixer work?

Yes, you should absolutely use a mixer (or boolean logic) for gate signals. In fact it's probably even more critical, since something like a 10V gate is just a large DC offset and therefore more likely to strain outputs than a variable voltage that only occasionally hits a +- 5V peak, etc.

Really what you want is an OR-combiner; wasting a mixer on gates is unnecessary.

[xonetacular]

Get something like these for simple mixing duties

[saemola]

wow whole thing kind of blew me away.
haven't use stackcables yet, but was planning to, and I always assumed I could use them to create some sort of complex rhythmic patterns by umming multiple EGs and LFOs into the same output.
wrong, I guess.

[Bogus]

Seems like they shouldn't sell the stackcables with double sided stackable ends. Considering you shouldn't stack inputs... why even subtly suggest the possibility to an unsuspecting user

[jbartee]

Seems like they shouldn't sell the stackcables with double sided stackable ends. Considering you shouldn't stack inputs... why even subtly suggest the possibility to an unsuspecting user

I agree that there could be a better initiative to make people aware of the limitations. It seems like we have a new thread about this every other week or so. Perhaps we can sticky one of them?

[jnlkrt]

Seems like they shouldn't sell the stackcables with double sided stackable ends. Considering you shouldn't stack inputs... why even subtly suggest the possibility to an unsuspecting user

you can make good use of both ends in normal operation, since you can mult the original output signal from both ends of the Stackable, you just have to make sure that it's going to another input, not an output.

[z3r01]

There's some info in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=1117517&sid=69a1e76db0d ... 47b06d1b4f

The thing about it is that there isn't anything concrete about whether can it be used to mix at inputs, or not. It has been mentioned that using stackcables to mix may result in slow burn out or damage

Trying to mix outputs using direct multiples (or y cables) is very wrong, here is a link to the very well presented Rane Note:
http://rane.com/note109.html

For those who cant get through the technical detail think about it this way:
Outputs move things, like tractors tow things.
One output can move things around and the things follow (but not quite exactly as the tow rope stretches and moves its self)
Two outputs trying to move the same thing will fight, the strongest one will have more influence but not complete control.

Iff the two outputs are equally strong then they will each have the same influence. But they will both be working hard to move the other wasting energy/work/effort.

Here is the rule: Outputs are low impedance and must only be connected to high impedance inputs -- never, never tie two outputs directly together -- never. If you do, then each output tries to drive the very low impedance of the other, forcing both outputs into current-limit and possible damage. As a minimum, severe signal loss results.

Thanks for the explanation and the link, Mungo.

[infradead]

Seems like they shouldn't sell the stackcables with double sided stackable ends. Considering you shouldn't stack inputs... why even subtly suggest the possibility to an unsuspecting user

look at banana cables. same general design.

if you're using them to mult to several different inputs stacking them is not an issue.

when i do use stackables a lot of time i'll be multing the signal to a lot of inputs and those double sided cables are pretty handy.

this really isn't a stackable issue. its an user issue.

[starmandeluxe]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I already have a mixer, though. My post was just asking about the functionality of the cables, if it was only for outputs or could be for inputs as well. Reasonable question, I hope.

you can make good use of both ends in normal operation, since you can mult the original output signal from both ends of the Stackable, you just have to make sure that it's going to another input, not an output.

This and Mungo's were the most helpful explanations. It confirms that what I expected was indeed incorrect but now I understand the proper use of the cable.

[ersatzplanet]

The difference between Banana systems and others is that the banana systems were designed with output protection that is lacking on some modules in Euroland. The problem in Euroland (and other formats) is that the outputs of many modules are no protected and some will be harmed from having the voltages being shoved into them. Having a stacked cable with the stacking jack only at one end would make no difference, the wire is still a wire and the signal plugged into the jack on the cable will still appear at both ends. Mixers and summing nodes are the way to combine signals. Active and passive multiple are the way to distribute a signal to many destinations.

[madcap]

Seems like they shouldn't sell the stackcables with double sided stackable ends. Considering you shouldn't stack inputs... why even subtly suggest the possibility to an unsuspecting user

That wouldn't even stop the problem. Peeps would just think that 1 end could be used for mixing. Posts come up about mixing with mults too

not to mention how useful double ended stackcables are.... (exactly 2x) 8_)

+1 on the sticky

another cool forum feature would be a button (like the PM button) that slaps the offender with a big banner when they login. Instead of saying you have a new message, it has search instructions.

[Ayab]

Does this mean that a multiple as opposed to a mixer cannot sum several outputs to an input without risk of damage?

[theflyingfridge]

Does this mean that a multiple as opposed to a mixer cannot sum several outputs to an input without risk of damage?

Correct.

Multiples "multiply" ONE signal into MANY signals. Mixers "mix" MANY signals into ONE signal. Multiples should not be used to mix, and mixers should not be used to multiply.

[okkoto]

thanks for this thread. been trying to figure this out and hopefully i didnt do any damage. I got on board recently and realized I can mult the same signal from both ends of the cable which is great, but TTA should probably be more specific about this idea in the manual. I read it a couple of times and nothing was as clear as what's in this thread. ya know.... for the noobs