There's something I'm not understanding about Stackcables...

UmFuFu · Post by **UmFuFu** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:48 pm

Sorry if this is really obvious or something but I find the TipTop Stackcables don't behave quite like I expect them to. I expect whatever I send through a Stackcable will be ADDED to whatever I send after. So just like using a mixer.

But say, for instance, that I'm sending two oscillators (through a VCA) to the input of a reverb. The first one through a Stackcable, the second one through a normal cable plugged into the Stackcable. As long as both signals have volume then they both get trough as expected, they're added together. BUT, if I then turn down the first signals volume (with the VCA) then they both disappear. This confuses me!

Should I not liken these to addition? Maybe some kind of "OR"?

Thanks. Sorry if this is stupid.

polyroy · Post by **polyroy** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:53 pm

They aren't meant to be used as a mixer. They are for sending multiple signals to different sources, not for summing signals.

UmFuFu · Post by **UmFuFu** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:00 pm

Ah, so they should only be used to mult outputs!
Should they never be used to mix inputs (audio or CV)?

The nerd in me is wondering why they'd act differently.

THANKS!

spunkytoofers · Post by **spunkytoofers** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:21 pm

yes. split out is fine. don't mix with them. there are alot of threads on the subject here that will warn against this to prevent damage or slow burnout.

UmFuFu · Post by **UmFuFu** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:49 pm

Okay thanks!
Well there it is. Good to know.

(Sorry about the other threads. I did a quick search before I posted but ill go back and look)

anselmi · Post by **anselmi** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:56 am

RTFM

hanerlend · Post by **hanerlend** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:32 am

there's a manual for stackcables?

-han

edit: indeed there is

flo · Post by **flo** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:24 am

Using them for mixing is connecting outputs to outputs, same as when using a passive mult for mixing... Not recommended.

maudibe · Post by **maudibe** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:00 am

Just to add my bit... it needs spelling out~:~

Use to distribute a trigger, gate, cv or audio but not to mix (join together).

Typical use is where you have a clock or reset that you want to distribute to many places... or a cv that you wish to point at numerous modules (prob a buffered mult is best here).

Perhaps you want to send a ADSR output to several filters or vca's...then thats good.

But do not (no-no-no-no) mix anything together. CV's get added for example, so you could inadvertently send 20v to your module if you add 4 5 volt signals

I think it even gets more complicated than that... you end up with all sorts of voltages going 'against the tide', if you get my drift.

Most modules should have over volt or input protection.... but would you want to risk it with the average price of a module at Ã‚Â£200-Ã‚Â£300.

If you want to add triggers or gates then Doepfer do a specific module for that. Obviously ditto with something like the polarizing mixer (138c) NS MIXERS 138a and 138b

Asking a related question myself... I have just got a Mutamix (cheers Richyho) - how is this adding CV's? I presume it wont let you go over the 12v standard? I used it to great effect yesterday. No problems, but obviously concerned to be mixing 6 CV's together

UmFuFu · Post by **UmFuFu** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:17 pm

Thanks guys. Very helpful!

BTW, I read that manual, which doesn't really spell this out. Or talk about it really. (Maybe there's a sentence in there somewhere but it's definitely not obvious)

jbartee · Post by **jbartee** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:35 pm

maudibe wrote:Just to add my bit... it needs spelling out~:~

Use to distribute a trigger, gate, cv or audio but not to mix (join together).

Typical use is where you have a clock or reset that you want to distribute to many places... or a cv that you wish to point at numerous modules (prob a buffered mult is best here).

Perhaps you want to send a ADSR output to several filters or vca's...then thats good.

But do not (no-no-no-no) mix anything together. CV's get added for example, so you could inadvertently send 20v to your module if you add 4 5 volt signals I think it even gets more complicated than that... you end up with all sorts of voltages going 'against the tide', if you get my drift.

Most modules should have over volt or input protection.... but would you want to risk it with the average price of a module at Ã‚Â£200-Ã‚Â£300.

If you want to add triggers or gates then Doepfer do a specific module for that. Obviously ditto with something like the polarizing mixer (138c) NS MIXERS 138a and 138b

Asking a related question myself... I have just got a Mutamix (cheers Richyho) - how is this adding CV's? I presume it wont let you go over the 12v standard? I used it to great effect yesterday. No problems, but obviously concerned to be mixing 6 CV's together

A good design will never output anything in excess of the +/- 12V supply rails. In general it's actually impossible for a module to do so as the buffer / amplifier stage on outputs can't generate higher voltage than what it's powered at. Even if the module was doing passive unbuffered mixing through a resistor network or something, this would average the inputs, not sum them to anything higher than the largest input voltage. A module would have to specifically use a boost regulator to generate anything larger than 12V... which would be a very stupid thing to do.

Also, just a minor point: mixing CV with stackcables won't actually sum the voltages either. The reason it's a Very Bad IdeaÃ¢â€žÂ¢ has to do with current and impedance problems that arise when two voltage sources are directly connected in parallel like that (against the tide, like you said, is a pretty accurate description of what's going on). Again, good designs should have at least a series resistor on outputs so should be able to cope, at least for a little while and in most circumstances. But you never know- insert Euro wild west reference here. It's bad patching practice and should be avoided.

soundmachines · Post by **soundmachines** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm

maudibe wrote:Just to add my bit...
---cut cut---
But do not (no-no-no-no) mix anything together. CV's get added for example, so you could inadvertently send 20v to your module if you add 4 5 volt signals I think it even gets more complicated than that... you end up with all sorts of voltages going 'against the tide', if you get my drift.
--cut cut--

My two cents...

In no (static) way you can have a sum that is bigger than the power supply rails!!!.
In your example (mutamix) you just 'saturate' the output of the opamps (normally at a voltage of 12V minus the IC dropout voltage) and you can never jump out of that range...

I think that stackcables need a little bit of attention from the user. The fact is that you can not only overdrive INPUTS but also OUTPUTS!!!! It depends on the circuitry used on the different modules... Basically, you can go from 'malfunctions' (out of tune oscs, etc..) to 'slow burnout' of some modules...

cheers!

maudibe · Post by **maudibe** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:14 pm

Thanks for clearing that up guys

Mind resting easy.

Karl_Joseph · Post by **Karl_Joseph** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:20 pm

Lots of helpful stuff here, thanks guys!

UmFuFu · Post by **UmFuFu** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:04 pm

I do feel like all of this info should be make more explicit by TipTop. Like they should come with an info tag, or it should be prominent on the website.

There's really nothing stopping people from using these incorrectly. You'd have to be an avid Muffwiggler to know any different it seems.

Just my 2-cents.

raulsworldofsynths · Post by **raulsworldofsynths** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:14 am

UmFuFu wrote:I do feel like all of this info should be make more explicit by TipTop. Like they should come with an info tag, or it should be prominent on the website.

There's really nothing stopping people from using these incorrectly. You'd have to be an avid Muffwiggler to know any different it seems.

Just my 2-cents.

Until I saw a stackable in real life I was a bit baffled by how they worked. Not being from an electronics background at all, most of the jacks I knew were from headphones and my understanding was it was a one way street.
So when I'd read about people's love for stackcables, but no description on the ah site,having never seen one I thought "WoW, these are pricy cables!"

Then at a convention I saw some Buchla style cables that allow for multiplying. The light came on.
Sometimes it takes a bit to sink in

Don't even get me started on the jacks from the Doepfer A152 Track and Hold which work both as inputs and outputs!
There's some strange black magic in there.

.

tommaso · Post by **tommaso** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:27 am

Another question about stackables:
can I use both sides of a stackable to mult a signal?
Something like this

Can I continue this kind of chain? Is there any risk or I'll experience only signal drop?

Thanx in advance mates

flo · Post by **flo** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:37 am

^ Yes this is good practice. That way you'll never have to stack stackcables on top of each other. Signal loss is just the same regardless of how you stack.

tommaso · Post by **tommaso** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:39 pm

Thanx Flo

UmFuFu · Post by **UmFuFu** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:41 pm

Wow crazy, I didn't know you could daisy-chain like that!

So in the photo above, the cable going out of the Stackcable from Filter CV IN would carry the LFO OUT signal to OSC? In other words the LFO OUT would go to both Filter and Osc?

jbartee · Post by **jbartee** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:11 pm

UmFuFu wrote:Wow crazy, I didn't know you could daisy-chain like that!

So in the photo above, the cable going out of the Stackcable from Filter CV IN would carry the LFO OUT signal to OSC? In other words the LFO OUT would go to both Filter and Osc?

Yep!

UmFuFu · Post by **UmFuFu** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:57 pm

Mind. Blown.

Trenchrun · Post by **Trenchrun** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:50 pm

Just grabbed a bunch of these. Great info thanks.

Mungo · Post by **Mungo** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:06 am

tommaso wrote:Another question about stackables:
can I use both sides of a stackable to mult a signal?
Something like this
[massive image]
Can I continue this kind of chain? Is there any risk or I'll experience only signal drop?

Thanx in advance mates

You can connect along to as many inputs as you like using passive mults or stack cables (integrated passive mults) from ONE and only one output. How much droop you get will depend on the module which is doing the output, generally you will only notice droop on pitch CV's being sent to oscillators when the source is quantised.

tommaso · Post by **tommaso** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:09 pm

^ Thanx

MOD WIGGLER

MOD WIGGLER

There's something I'm not understanding about Stackcables...

There's something I'm not understanding about Stackcables...