E-RM Polygogo

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bemushroomed
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by bemushroomed »

Devilwidget wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:10 pm
Can someone explain the phase cancellation issue? I understand the concept - but it seems that phase cancellation would be integral to a module that works in this manner, and a 'feature' rather than a problem? Or is there an issue/bug?
Lengthy (and a bit tiresome) discussion here by Max Chroma and some others who comments on it under this review:



So phase cancelation is an issue in mono, in the lower bass range. So let's say you have a subwoofer (these are mono, normally) then yes you can get uncontrollable (very loud) bass. I'm not sure if this is an issue really, if i mix with my subwoofer to begin with i guess i should be safe? Maybe its more of a problem further down the mixing stages. I don't know, it's a rather complex issue it seems (or maybe its just over-exaggerated when it comes to the module itself).
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mvdirty
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by mvdirty »

Devilwidget wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:10 pm Can someone explain the phase cancellation issue? I understand the concept - but it seems that phase cancellation would be integral to a module that works in this manner, and a 'feature' rather than a problem? Or is there an issue/bug?
As noted by the other reply, the YouTube thread is tiresome. I’d actually go farther: it is tedious and pedantic.

To be clear: As soon as I learned of the Polygogo’s synthesis technique I immediately thought that E-RM should have avoided marketing the module as a stereo module. You can even see the audience, and the creator too, get a bit shifty when it comes up during the Schneidersladen session video on the module (which, for anyone who hasn’t seen it, is an awesome video otherwise.)

I’m with the “dissenters” in that YouTube comment thread: Stereo low end is asking for trouble, whether with this particular module or another.

The best way to approach this module is to think of it as a mono module with a bonus output that might prove useful depending on how you patch everything up.

The rest is just making a mountain out of a molehill.
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Devilwidget
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by Devilwidget »

Do you say they should have avoided marketing as a stereo module because it doesn't really offer stereo effects? To my mind, the module seems it should offer control over the 'stereo' width of the signal, both in terms of panning and in terms of phase - or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
mvdirty wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:14 pm
Devilwidget wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:10 pm Can someone explain the phase cancellation issue? I understand the concept - but it seems that phase cancellation would be integral to a module that works in this manner, and a 'feature' rather than a problem? Or is there an issue/bug?
As noted by the other reply, the YouTube thread is tiresome. I’d actually go farther: it is tedious and pedantic.

To be clear: As soon as I learned of the Polygogo’s synthesis technique I immediately thought that E-RM should have avoided marketing the module as a stereo module. You can even see the audience, and the creator too, get a bit shifty when it comes up during the Schneidersladen session video on the module (which, for anyone who hasn’t seen it, is an awesome video otherwise.)

I’m with the “dissenters” in that YouTube comment thread: Stereo low end is asking for trouble, whether with this particular module or another.

The best way to approach this module is to think of it as a mono module with a bonus output that might prove useful depending on how you patch everything up.

The rest is just making a mountain out of a molehill.
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mvdirty
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by mvdirty »

Devilwidget wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:26 pm Do you say they should have avoided marketing as a stereo module because it doesn't really offer stereo effects? To my mind, the module seems it should offer control over the 'stereo' width of the signal, both in terms of panning and in terms of phase - or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
After a couple of tries, I’m finding it very difficult to write a succinct reply. Please bear with me, and feel free to bug me to better express my thoughts...

I suspect that the issue is rather more that stereo sound sources come with particular expectations and engineering related to channel phase. The nature of Polygogo’s synthesis technique makes it difficult to meet those expectations. It arguably should have avoided using the term stereo in its promotion, even if simply to cleanly sidestep in advance all of this potential for confusion that has so clearly come to pass, and even if still demonstrating the module with all sorts of interesting stereo patches.

There are modules with phase outputs, one coming quickly to mind being the Filter 8. One might use them in interesting stereo scenarios, perhaps even _because_ of their phase behaviour. Are they marketed as stereo modules? No, because they don’t meet the general “stereo” channel phase expectations either.

ADDENDUM to comment a little more directly on a few parts of your reply:
Devilwidget wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:26 pm Do you say they should have avoided marketing as a stereo module because it doesn't really offer stereo effects?
No, it doesn’t. The X and Y outputs are the literal values of the current two-dimensional coordinate of a process that draws a shape. There will, for example, be all sorts of coordinates where one value is positive and the other is negative, and of those there will be moments where they have (nearly) the same absolute value in mathematical terms, resulting in cancellation. (Though one can help minimize those moments by modulating parameters such that various, and ever-changing, asymmetries are produced.)
Devilwidget wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:26 pm To my mind, the module seems it should offer control over the 'stereo' width of the signal, both in terms of panning and in terms of phase - or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Regarding phase, I think a firmware update, or a “Polygogo 2”, could probably address much of this, or at least give owners more direct control of it. Instead of a Y output, it could have an “n” output which sources its value not from the current position in relation to the Y axis but rather some other angle through the origin, with the ability to set and modulate that angle.

In practice, this would sound much like you’d imagine if the Polygogo had _two_ Roll parameters, one for each output. This wouldn’t eliminate the phase behaviour but it would at least give each user direct control over it. In retrospect of typing, I’m a little surprised the Polygogo isn’t already this way.
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mvdirty
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by mvdirty »

Looking back on my long post of nearly a week ago, even without a firmware update or a “Polygogo 2” this phase thing is such a silly time-wasting issue that I’d rather suggest people (myself included) focus on suggestions that can help the Polygogo make far more interesting and powerful sounds.

So, with that in mind, here’s a simple one to get get things going: Patch both outputs but waveshape/fold either or both.

Heck, even just writing that got some more flowing (though I have to stop now to do some actual work to help pay for more modules. ;) )
  • Filter one of them.
  • Distort one of them.
  • Externally phase/frequency modulate one of them.
  • And so on...
This is modular. There are a thousand ways to patch that might make for odd phasing issues. Heck, even just placing the wrong number of buffered mults in the signal chain could do it. Why single out one module? Let’s just get on with it!
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by emilng »

When I first saw this module, the reason I wanted to get it was for the visual potential of it. I finally got around to capturing the screen of the Polygogo, feeding the output of it into an Erogenous Tones Structure and building a track around that. The visuals are at the start and end of the video if that's all you're interested in.

mostly modular experiments: https://www.youtube.com/user/maztik8r
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by wajobu »

emilng wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 pm When I first saw this module, the reason I wanted to get it was for the visual potential of it. I finally got around to capturing the screen of the Polygogo, feeding the output of it into an Erogenous Tones Structure and building a track around that. The visuals are at the start and end of the video if that's all you're interested in.

An excellent use of the Polygogo--as part of an ensemble. It's great to see the demos of modules like this (and the 4ms Ensemble) in a standalone setting, but I do think they are most effective when used as part of a greater whole. Nice work!
On a reach and planing
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mdoudoroff
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by mdoudoroff »

Interesting. Seems like there should be useful applications for directly patching the audio from the Polygogo directly into video synthesis modules. Is there a module that will do a polar mapping like the Polygogo’s own display?
emilng
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by emilng »

mdoudoroff wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:59 am Interesting. Seems like there should be useful applications for directly patching the audio from the Polygogo directly into video synthesis modules. Is there a module that will do a polar mapping like the Polygogo’s own display?
Any module that can handle displaying XY values would display exactly what's on the Polygogo screen. So you would be able to see the same pattern in a Zeroscope, O'Tool, or Mordax Data set to XY mode. The LZX Chromagnon has ILDA outputs so you could plug the Polygogo audio into that to drive the output on a laser projector.

The Structure has an XY mode too, but either the sample rate or line drawing algorithm isn't as good as on the Polygogo so the output looks thin and pixelated if I plug the audio in directly. This is why I went with screen capture instead.
mostly modular experiments: https://www.youtube.com/user/maztik8r
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by Besfar »

mvdirty wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:41 am Looking back on my long post of nearly a week ago, even without a firmware update or a “Polygogo 2” this phase thing is such a silly time-wasting issue that I’d rather suggest people (myself included) focus on suggestions that can help the Polygogo make far more interesting and powerful sounds.

So, with that in mind, here’s a simple one to get get things going: Patch both outputs but waveshape/fold either or both.

Heck, even just writing that got some more flowing (though I have to stop now to do some actual work to help pay for more modules. ;) )
  • Filter one of them.
  • Distort one of them.
  • Externally phase/frequency modulate one of them.
  • And so on...
This is modular. There are a thousand ways to patch that might make for odd phasing issues. Heck, even just placing the wrong number of buffered mults in the signal chain could do it. Why single out one module? Let’s just get on with it!
You have good posts.
Thanks👌

I still would like to buy one of these.
At about what frequency does it phase out, or isnt it that kind of phase problem? :)

Can i make some noise with it, and put it through a mono plug in ableton, and still have some noise?
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mvdirty
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by mvdirty »

Besfar wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:16 pm At about what frequency does it phase out, or isnt it that kind of phase problem? :)

Can i make some noise with it, and put it through a mono plug in ableton, and still have some noise?
You’ll find the simplest possible option almost hilarious, especially in light of all the hand-wringing on the topic: Patch the X output and get on with your life.

If at some point in the future you want to play with combining the two outputs, then also patch up the Y output (and just make sure to check your mix in both mono and stereo, which you should be doing anyway if you mix in stereo.)
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by Besfar »

mvdirty wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:11 pm You’ll find the simplest possible option almost hilarious, especially in light of all the hand-wringing on the topic: Patch the X output and get on with your life.
I dont know why they made it stereo at all in that case. Could just as well pass it through a mult and apply some subtle modulation on the one signal to achieve probably a better result :)

Anyway, thanks for the reply. That youtube comment was too sad to read through.
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mvdirty
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by mvdirty »

Besfar wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:37 am I dont know why they made it stereo at all in that case. Could just as well pass it through a mult and apply some subtle modulation on the one signal to achieve probably a better result :)
For whatever reasons, E-RM seems to have a dug themselves a hole in repeatedly marketing it as a stereo module, and don’t seem to want to walk that back, but whatever. Were I to write off modules and vendors based on occasional missteps then it might over time make for a very short list of remaining options. I’m personally inclined to just treating the Y output as a nice bonus to help drive visualization, to run through crazy processing, or to just leave unpatched, and get on with life.
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by Plasmatron »

Hi Folks, my first question here :)


can the roll function only turn in a circle? And can I only control the speed with the CV input of the roll function. Stupid that there is no instruction manual ... :)

I think it would be great if you could determine the position of the exit. Only a Leslie effect is not so nice in the long run.

Sebastian
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MikeLeeBirds
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by MikeLeeBirds »

Interesting to hear about phase issues. I mostly use only one output and that gives me all I need.
I love the thing and haven’t even explored sync, yet. It‘s awesome for bass, clean sines, harsh noise, etc.
Forget the stereo aspect if it bothers you. I think there’s enough goodness even without it.
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mvdirty
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by mvdirty »

And, for those who’ve not watched them, go find ^ MikeLeeBirds ^ videos on YouTube. He features the Polygogo in a few of them.
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by Lux A Turner »



My Soundcloud - - - - - My Bandcamp - - - - - My Freesound - - - - - My Eurorack
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MikeLeeBirds
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by MikeLeeBirds »

Lux A Turner wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:17 pm
Awesome!!
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by MikeLeeBirds »

mvdirty wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:50 am And, for those who’ve not watched them, go find ^ MikeLeeBirds ^ videos on YouTube. He features the Polygogo in a few of them.
Thank you!
😃
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by MikeLeeBirds »

Polygogo X through Rainmaker and Clouds.
Y through Panharmonium, Freak Filter and Arbhar‘s reverb.

I‘m using Polygogo’s built-in VCA hack which, for some reason, I really like.

(I‘m only using X and Y out of convenience. I might as well have multed the same signal.)

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mvdirty
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by mvdirty »

MikeLeeBirds wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:46 am Polygogo X through Rainmaker and Clouds.
Y through Panharmonium, Freak Filter and Arbhar‘s reverb.
Very, very nice.
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by MikeLeeBirds »

mvdirty wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:26 pm Very, very nice.
Thanks. It’s so much fun developing this patch further!
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by freemod »

Hello, cannot find a manual for deeper description of this module... It necessarily needs a vca in order to modulate the amplitude by the means of gated envelope, right?
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by Olifreke »

yes, like any oscillator it will just produce a continuous tone unless you patch a VCA and envelope generator on it.

(Whilst here, I'll just add my voice to the chorus of 'this thing just can't sound bad'! I love it!)
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Re: E-RM Polygogo

Post by mdoudoroff »

freemod wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:45 am Hello, cannot find a manual for deeper description of this module... It necessarily needs a vca in order to modulate the amplitude by the means of gated envelope, right?
Polygogo doesn’t have a manual. It ostensibly doesn’t need one.

Regarding your question, it’s a modular oscillator, intended to be used with other modules downstream, including VCAs, filters, LPGs, etc.

That said, Loopop nicely documents a “hack” that wrings a VCA out of the FOLD CV:

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