Moon Modular 569 & 554?

[monsturo]

Does anyone have a definitive answer on how well both of these modules work? I was going though many of the threads and it seems there were/are some serious issues and wanted to ask what peoples opinions are now. Hopefully after some of these things have been fixed. I am looking to set up a small single voice plus sequencing set-up and these two modules are perfect for that -- if they work well.

Anyway, just wanted to get some feedback.

[JohnLRice]

Hi monsturo!

I don't have a M554 (yet? ;-) but I've had my M569 for a while now and really like it. It is my "go to" sequencer over the Q960 because it is more self contained, capable and eaier to use IMHO. Meaning, for me I can get simple to complex sequences together much faster than I can using my Q960 and suppoert modules.

I was an early adopter and when I first got it I soon realized that there were quite a few issues with it, the most critical being that the internal quantizer was quantizing differently for different rows. So Gert at Moon sent me some info on recalibrating the quantizer, which would of been OK but I couldn't seem to get it to be consistant!!! And this was because I didn't realize for the longest time that changing the Mode switch setting was throwing off the calibration!!!! Moon offered for me to send it back and they would make it right but I just opted for them to send me a new main board and I swapped it out myself. And now it is MUCH better!!! 8_) It is still not perfect, but the remaining issues are fairly minor for my use. (like if you are in 32 step mode and you stop somewhere after the first row and then press the reset button, the LED indicator will light up for row 1 step 1, but the voltage stays at the value it was for the step you stopped on! I've heard there are some finiky problems using the Set Input expander module but that mat be resolved . . maybe????)

I highly recommend that you (or anyone else considering getting a M569) email Gert at Moon Modular and ask questions about any of the reported issues to see if they have already been resolved or not. 8_)

[VinceL]

Like John, I own an M569, but not the M554.

I also own 2 Dotcom Q960's (which have performed flawlessly for me), and I had read John's posts about issues with his M569. As John suggested, I contacted Gert about the problems. He was very helpful and answered my questions. And, he assured me that the currently shipping M569's feature the fixes that John got in his new mainboard. I then contacted Chuck at Noisebug to find out what version of the M569 he had in stock. Fortunately, his in-stock M569's were very recent.

I ordered the M569 along with both the M569ES and M569EG. All the modules have been working well for me. There were a few things that happened that I thought indicated a problem. But, after using my feeble brain to diagnose the problem, it turned out that the M569 was working correctly, and it was my brain that had a problem.

[Nelson Baboon]

As far as I know, none of the fixes have been for the problems between the input expander and the 569. I cannot even get answers on this promised fix anymore, and am a bit annoyed about it.

Overall the 569 works very well (and even the problems with the expander are only for other than the 8x4 mode).

I have thus far had very good success with the 554.

I also continue to have big problems with my 552 - cv to midi converter.

[VinceL]

As far as I know, none of the fixes have been for the problems between the input expander and the 569.

In a previous post, I think you said the problem (or at least one of the problems) with the M569ES was that you could only patch to a stage that is beyond the reset point in 4x8 mode. I just tried this with my M569 and M569ES, and it worked in 4x8, 2x16, and 1x32 mode.

So, either the problem has been fixed, or I misunderstood the problem you have been having.

[Nelson Baboon]

You description isn't right. Maybe a typo. I haven't retried this since I and Gert agreed that it wasn't working, but as I recally, if you try to select step 9 in 2x16 mode for instance, it doesn't work. I'll have to try it again.

[JohnLRice]

I also continue to have big problems with my 552 - cv to midi converter.

Hi,

Could you tell me what the problems are with the 552 (or point me to the thread where you already explained it)? I'll try to reproduce the issues with mine.

[ed buller]

Hi

I have a couple of 569's and a 554. It's a very powerful set up. I basically have eight step sequencers running on different locked speeds. Each with trigger on, off, skip and reset.


the 569's work fine. The 554 locked up after a couple of days of continuous running ( turning it off and on again fixed it ) . Gert has identified the fault and I guess i'll get a board to swap soon. I had a problem with the reset but that was speedily fixed.

I would recommend both modules in a heartbeat. With the 565E ( when it's fixed, which i believe is very close ) it's a beautiful thing.
very nice

e

[Nelson Baboon]

The pitch doesn't hold steady for the same voltage. Try the following test - reset the 569 on step 2 so you have only one value being sent to the 552. Set that first knob on the 569 to somewhere in the middle of the range. Then set the 569 range to 10v for that row (no issue with the other settings). Do you then get a consistent pitch value from the 552? I do not. I've sent Gert the results of a midi monitor which shows the pitch changing (usually every few notes) up or down one semitone - sometimes even further. This also happens with other sequencers (not just the 569). The fact that there is no problem with the settings other than 10v suggests that if the pitch it gets is quantized, there is no 'confusion' so try moving the knob around a bit. The issue doesn't happen if the knob is near the bottom of the range. I forget if it happens if it's at the top of the range.

I also continue to have big problems with my 552 - cv to midi converter.

Hi,

Could you tell me what the problems are with the 552 (or point me to the thread where you already explained it)? I'll try to reproduce the issues with mine.

[suitandtieguy]

have you tried running the 10v output of the 569 into an attenuator first and cutting the range down?

this would do two things: first it would bring the 10v output into a more useable range, and you'd also be attenuating the line noise which may be the cause of the 552's problem you're talking about here.

have you tried the output of the Graphic Sequencer into the 552?

it would be nice to test the 552 from a stable reference voltage to see if this output jitter is still present.

[Nelson Baboon]

But the issue doesn't have anything at all to do with the range - as I said, there is no problem with the bottom of the range at all, and it is pronounced in the middle of the range. I haven't tried it with the graphic sequencer. After a point, I just get sick of testing shit that doesn't work right. It should simply work with the 569 as is, and there is no expectation when you buy it that you're going to have to run the 569 (or other sequencers - I've tried the inseqt with it ) through other modules to stabilize the signal. I've had cv to midi modules before and never ran into anything like this.

On the other hand, I will try it through an attenuator just to see if it works.

[JohnLRice]

Sorry for the delay in testing.

The good news is, I'm 95% sure the problem is NOT the 552 Voltage to MIDI converter!

The bad news is, I'm 95% sure the problem IS the 10v setting on the 569 sequencer!

I want to do more tests to confirm (like putting a scope on the CV out of the 569) but yeah, I can definitely confirm that doing the test "DrooMa NelBab" (heh) suggested gives the same results, randomized notes and in some cases quite a range where it almost sounds like a sample and hold processing pink noise!

The reason I think it's the 569 is that I tried to make it happen with my Q960 sequencer and it maybe only happened once in about 5 minutes and I had to try really hard to find a spot in the range to do it. I also tried to make it happen by using a MOTM-320 as the clock and then a bias source (my M525 reversible attenuator) as the fixed voltage and that worked as well as the Q960.

I also tried playing with attenuating the CV and well as the gate signal (for fun) coming off the 569 like Suit suggested but it didn't seem to help or make things worse.

I'm guessing, but I'm suspecting that maybe the 569 just inst putting out a constant voltage but recalculates and regenerates it on each step and there are random spikes or ramp-ups than occasionaly make it out of the jack and this is confusing the 552/ (maybe . . )

I know you said other sequencers were tried, which ones? Maybe there is some spikiness in them as well or???

I'm going to bed . . .

[suitandtieguy]

maybe at a fullscale 10v output you're getting most of the power supply noise, and when its attenuated down to musically useful levels so is the noise, so it ceases to be an issue?

[Nelson Baboon]

It isn't only the 569. I replicated this with the Inseqt.

[JohnLRice]

maybe at a fullscale 10v output you're getting most of the power supply noise, and when its attenuated down to musically useful levels so is the noise, so it ceases to be an issue?

I forgot to mention it is still a problem with the 5V and 2V ranges, just not as bad. Actually the 2V range is worse than the 5v.

Attenuation isn't really a help, a step setting in the 10v range that produces 2.5 volts still is a problem.

In the m569, the 2 and 5 volt ranges are automatically quantized and the 10 volt range isn't (can't turn it on and off, it's just the way it is.)

[JohnLRice]

It isn't only the 569. I replicated this with the Inseqt.

Do you still have the other CV->MIDI module(s) you mentioned? Or at least did you have the Inseqt or 569 at the time?

I'll try to test more tonight.

[monsturo]

well thanks guys. will be ordering a Q960 and Q171 this week!

I love the moon gate sequencer though, this just sounds *really* frustrating however.

[VinceL]

The bad news is, I'm 95% sure the problem IS the 10v setting on the 569 sequencer!

An interesting, but disturbing result/conclusion.

I always run my 569 in 10 volt mode into a 525 and then into a Q171. I prefer this approach since the 569 quantizer only does semi-tone quantizing. So, minor glitches in voltage variance from the 569 should be "masked" by the Q171 quantizer. But, every once in a while, it sounds like a note changes in a sequence. The next time through it is back to normal. I have not been able to actually "catch it" generating an off note. So, I have been figuring that it was me hearing things. But, based on your results, maybe not.

Now I'm gonna have to go run some tests, too.

[giorgio]

wow. i didn't know about all this. before i sold my 66 space MU system I was considering getting a moon sequencing system. kinda glad I didn't, although I wish for your guys sake that this was working better. what a beautiful looking sequencer it is!

[JohnLRice]

OK, I STILL think that the main problem with the M569 + M552 combination is the M569's 10V output (98% sure at this point).

I'm not trying to argue with Nelson or anyone one way or another, just stating what I'm seeing with my modules with the limited testing I've done so far.

DISCLAIMERS (additional ): I don't want to cause a wide spread panic over the M569. I still feel, even with its quirks and issues to be a fantastic sequencer. (watch and listen to my YouTube videos where I use the M569, I think you'll agree that the only apparent shortcomings at times are my own lack of creativity and musicality! ) Also, readers of this should keep in mind that I was an early adopter of this module and it initially had some more serious problems until Moon sent me a new main board that I installed myself which fixed most of the critical issues. But, my "channel' boards are still the originals so maybe my particular module still has some early bugs that the later ones don't?

OK, the reason I think the M569 sequencer's 10V range seems to be a problem when running it's CV out to a M552 CV->MIDI converter should be obvious in the following snapshots. (the M552 was not involed in this test)

I patched various source voltages to an MOTM-300 VCO (just so I could listen) and I quickly tuned each by ear to be the same (or very close) voltage. I also ran the voltage out to a simple analog oscilloscope and snapped pics of the screen every time I changed the voltage source:

Q960 sequencer


M525 attenuators/bias source


M569 2V range


M569 5V range (notice that the trace is looking a little skinnier and noisier here)



(with the 10V out, varying the 'level' control on the O'scope changed the trace pattern a lot so here are three different samples)
M569 10V range (sample a)


M569 10V range (sample b)


M569 10V range (sample c)



So, it seems to me that the 10V out is really "noisy". Just listening to the MOTM-300 VCO I never heard ANY pitch variation so, this is maybe some . . . hhhhmm . . hold on . . . .

OK! I just ran the voltage out through a LPF and it straightened out the oscope pattern so it looked like the other stable ones! Also, it pretty much removed like 95% of all the pitch fluctuations when running the voltage to the M552! I tried a MOTM-440, MOTM-490 and Grove PM Resonator.

So it seems there is some AC leaking into the 10V line for some reason?

Could Nelson and other M569 owners with oscilloscopes and/or M552 modules please confirm this? Just set a M569 row to 10V mode and pass the CV out through a low pass filter with the frequency knob turned all the way down.

OK, I only had two hours sleep last night and I should have gone to bed LONG ago . . . .

[Nelson Baboon]

It isn't only the 569. I replicated this with the Inseqt.

Do you still have the other CV->MIDI module(s) you mentioned? Or at least did you have the Inseqt or 569 at the time?

I'll try to test more tonight.

no. Just the Moon.

[Nelson Baboon]

Well, I suppose it's possible that my inseqt has the exact same issue...that would seem a bit strange to me...

OK, I STILL think that the main problem with the M569 + M552 combination is the M569's 10V output (98% sure at this point).

I'm not trying to argue with Nelson or anyone one way or another, just stating what I'm seeing with my modules with the limited testing I've done so far.

DISCLAIMERS (additional ): I don't want to cause a wide spread panic over the M569. I still feel, even with its quirks and issues to be a fantastic sequencer. (watch and listen to my YouTube videos where I use the M569, I think you'll agree that the only apparent shortcomings at times are my own lack of creativity and musicality! ) Also, readers of this should keep in mind that I was an early adopter of this module and it initially had some more serious problems until Moon sent me a new main board that I installed myself which fixed most of the critical issues. But, my "channel' boards are still the originals so maybe my particular module still has some early bugs that the later ones don't?

OK, the reason I think the M569 sequencer's 10V range seems to be a problem when running it's CV out to a M552 CV->MIDI converter should be obvious in the following snapshots. (the M552 was not involed in this test)

I patched various source voltages to an MOTM-300 VCO (just so I could listen) and I quickly tuned each by ear to be the same (or very close) voltage. I also ran the voltage out to a simple analog oscilloscope and snapped pics of the screen every time I changed the voltage source:

Q960 sequencer


M525 attenuators/bias source


M569 2V range


M569 5V range (notice that the trace is looking a little skinnier and noisier here)



(with the 10V out, varying the 'level' control on the O'scope changed the trace pattern a lot so here are three different samples)
M569 10V range (sample a)


M569 10V range (sample b)


M569 10V range (sample c)



So, it seems to me that the 10V out is really "noisy". Just listening to the MOTM-300 VCO I never heard ANY pitch variation so, this is maybe some . . . hhhhmm . . hold on . . . .

OK! I just ran the voltage out through a LPF and it straightened out the oscope pattern so it looked like the other stable ones! Also, it pretty much removed like 95% of all the pitch fluctuations when running the voltage to the M552! I tried a MOTM-440, MOTM-490 and Grove PM Resonator.

So it seems there is some AC leaking into the 10V line for some reason?

Could Nelson and other M569 owners with oscilloscopes and/or M552 modules please confirm this? Just set a M569 row to 10V mode and pass the CV out through a low pass filter with the frequency knob turned all the way down.

OK, I only had two hours sleep last night and I should have gone to bed LONG ago . . . .

[Nelson Baboon]

No oscilloscope here...

I think that overall the moon is a fantastic sequencing system.

However, I am quite peeved at the very long time it has taken for me to confirm this issue, and Gert's very slow responses.

[VinceL]

I was able to do some testing today of my 569.

I don't have an oscilloscope so all testing is based on my hearing.

I took the 10v output of the 569 => 525 => Q106 => Q108 vca and then into my mixer and monitor. So, no filtering or quantizing. I ran the 569 with a single step, 2 steps, 3 steps, and 4 steps. I ran it using its internal oscillator and driving it from a 563.

I am happy to report that I did not have any instances of changed/unexpected notes (caveat: that I could hear).

My 569 is quite new. I bought it from Noisebug in July. And, Chuck confirmed that he had received the 569 that I bought very recently. So, perhaps there have been some changes/fixes since the early 569's?

[Nelson Baboon]

Well, I still think that it's more plausible that the 552 is at least partially responsible.