Klavis Twin Waves, some demo of the FM capabilities?

[julubudu]

Hi there!

This Klavis Twin Waves looks pretty interesting, with a very wise compromise between the number of features packed in a small size, and the interface usability.

Osc 1 is supposed to support linear FM, and being through-zero. I'm very curious to hear some FM on that module, especially in the TZ domain. To those who own it: any opinion on how it sounds in this particular combination?

I would be most grateful if someone would be as kind as to post or link to some demo of the FM capabilities of this promising little beast. It could be some simple modulations of osc 1 by some sine coming from osc 2, or any external clean sine, through a VCA.

Thanks, and sorry for my eventually broken english!

[matcsat]

Hi,

i attempted a video from your request.

[video][/video]
The first 40 seconds are silent.

Modules used:

- Klavis Twin Waves dual digital VCO/LFO
- Doepfer A-132-3 dual vca version 1
- Doepfer A-171-2 VCS
- Ladik U20 buffered multiple
- MFB dual LFO
- Xaoc Devices Sewastopol

Audio recorded with Tascam DR70D

Osc 1 FMed by osc 2 thru vca.
Both osc are simple sine.
When the modulator, osc 2, at high pitch it's noticeable a degradation of the FMed signal.
In the same context the osc 1 is free to cover the entire range.
There are pitch changes over certain FM deep.

Hope it answer your question.

Marco.

edit:
two important things: no musical purpose in the video and no attempt whatsoever of making bell sounds, just one osc fm another.

[julubudu]

Hi Marco,

Thank you very much for taking time shooting this video!

It's really clear, and it answers quite well my question.

As you pointed out, sounds like it becomes hoarse when osc 2 gets high pitched. I guess it comes from osc 1 FM algorithm, and that we would get the same effect with an external high pitched osc modulating osc 1.

Though not totally unpleasing, that's a bit annoying since it seems to prevent getting some of those clean and very metallic tones one can get with a high pitched modulating signal. Except that point, FM seems quite usable.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Julien

[matcsat]

Hi,

I guess it comes from osc 1 FM algorithm

My guess too, maybe addressable in future firmware update.

the same effect with an external high pitched osc modulating osc 1

i didn't captured it on camera but the behaviour is the same with other osc.

it seems to prevent getting some of those clean and very metallic tones one can get with a high pitched modulating signal

actually a few algorithms can get you in those territory.
This is the reason because i like this module and the limited extension of the FM doesn't bother me too much

Except that point, FM seems quite usable

Yes.

Thanks again

you're welcome.

Marco.

[Zentek]

Hi,
i attempted a video from your request.

Thank you for the video.

Eric

[julubudu]

Hi,

Thanks again for your answer, Marco. And thanks to Eric for coming to this topic.

it seems to prevent getting some of those clean and very metallic tones one can get with a high pitched modulating signal

actually a few algorithms can get you in those territory.

Probably. Actually I'm more used to analog FM. I really enjoy my Dixie II/Doepfer A-110-4 combo to this respect. But I'm in need for more oscillators (and more FM) and Klavis is a pretty serious candidate!

I guess it comes from osc 1 FM algorithm

My guess too, maybe addressable in future firmware update.

What do you think of it, Eric? Do you think it would be technically possible to address this limitation in some future firmware version?
By the way, congratulations for what seems to be a great module, with a very well thought interface.

Best,
Julien

[Conrad]

The pitch definitely seems to increase a little bit with the FM index. Doesn't this kind of defeat the purpose of TZFM?

[matcsat]

Hi,

The pitch definitely seems to increase a little bit with the FM index. Doesn't this kind of defeat the purpose of TZFM?

i have to clarify: the video i made was pre firmware upgrade.
And the new firmwares addressed that, plus other nice improvement.

The peculiar thing of TZFM is how it behave when receive negative voltage.

Marco.

[matcsat]

Hi,

i probably put it too simply about TZFM.
Here a good reading.

And i borrow one navs's reply: "...Even a TZ VCO can be affected by pitching if the modulator is not symmetrical, meaning it is riding on or contains a DC offset. That is what causes the pitching artefacts..."

Hope it helps.

Marco.

[Zentek]

I guess it comes from osc 1 FM algorithm.
What do you think of it, Eric? Do you think it would be technically possible to address this limitation in some future firmware version?
By the way, congratulations for what seems to be a great module, with a very well thought interface.

Best,
Julien

It is some time now that we thought about a new implementation for the FM.
This is now done and will be available in a few days.
We've done something quite refined compared to the usual way.

In our version, called Bipolar Zero Crossing (BZX for friends), we span the frequency range from F to -F in a perfect balanced way around the zero F point, which is found at mid-voltage (positive and negative).
(The zero F point is where the oscillator is stopped.)

it means that at full CV (positive or negative), you reach exactly the frequency you initially started from, but cycling backwards.
It also implies that a bipolar modulation will reverse the wave direction twice, once when positive and once when negative.
This symmetrical frequency behavior eases tonal sound generation which can be tricky when doing through zero FM.

The code is done, we still need to update the manual, make some video, etc.
Please keep with us; it shouldn't be too long to get the firmware update

[matcsat]

Hi,

... we thought about a new implementation for the FM ...
now done and will be available in a few days ...

great news.

Marco.

[Pighood]

[esotericmetal]

This module just keeps getting better!

[Pighood]

So is it correct that the implementation in 1.16 does not need activation through a menu?

[matcsat]

So is it correct that the implementation in 1.16 does not need activation through a menu?

No,

it's one of the four possible roles of FM/AM input and you have to select one after long press of LFO/AM button.

Marco.

[BLogic12]

As you pointed out, sounds like it becomes hoarse when osc 2 gets high pitched. I guess it comes from osc 1 FM algorithm, and that we would get the same effect with an external high pitched osc modulating osc 1.

Though not totally unpleasing, that's a bit annoying since it seems to prevent getting some of those clean and very metallic tones one can get with a high pitched modulating signal. Except that point, FM seems quite usable.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Julien

So this issue has been completely taken care of in the current firmware?

[Zentek]

So this issue has been completely taken care of in the current firmware?

Several requirements are mentioned throughout the thread.
The code is currently at version 1.33; I would need a precisely defined request as to what to check in order to reply adequately.
Please ask. Thank you

[Mabuse]

any fm examples out there of the TW with the current firmware?

[johannes]

how far can one go with this module on its own in terms of fm?
cross modulation of vco 1 and 2?
basic 2 operator fm ala dx7?

[Zentek]

how far can one go with this module on its own in terms of fm?
cross modulation of vco 1 and 2?
basic 2 operator fm ala dx7?

Part of the answer:



In the various examples, the FM is not used, thus still available for added fun
Instead, synchronization, time reversal and wave shaping are done from osc2 to osc1.
If needed, perfect pitch relation without altering the timbre is achieved by (internally) deriving the V/Oct for both osc from the osc1 input jack.

The video is quite old, with a now obsolete firmware. In the meantime, several synthesis algorithms were added or improved.

I still should do a video dedicated to FM.
Thank you for your interest

[johannes]

thanks for your answer. hmmm… the videolink is not working for me. it says its not available.?
maybe its time for a new demo where you show fm on the TW (with current firmware).
that would be really helpful.

btw. is exp fm avaiable on the TW via V.OCT 1 or 2?

[Zentek]

hmmm… the videolink is not working for me. it says its not available.?

There is some unavoidable "validation" delay on Youtube.
Please try again in a few hours.
Thanks.

[Zentek]

Is exp fm avaiable on the TW via V.OCT 1 or 2?

VCO1 and 2 each have their own V/Oct input - thus exponential.
On the VCO1 FM input, you can select between BZX-FM (Bipolar through-zero-crossing FM - a Klavis invention ), or linear FM.

[johannes]

great. good to know!

iam very curious to hear your BZX-FM…

[Pighood]

The FM between oscillators sounds different than everything else in my rig....sputtery and juicy when both are in audio range, and spazzy when LFO FM's audio rate. Makes a chap wanna get a second one