Schippmann CS-8 Omega-Phi VCO MKI or MKII

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tobineumann
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Schippmann CS-8 Omega-Phi VCO MKI or MKII

Post by tobineumann »

Hello Users,
does anybody of you had the chance to try out Schippman‘s new True Zero VCO?
I bought one which I really like.
But now less than a half year after release he already brings out a MKII version which costs another 100 Euro more then the already expensive MKI.
:despair:
Thanks, T
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Nielsen
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Post by Nielsen »

Really? What the...

I'm in the same boat as you. Bought his VCO 4 weeks ago and really like it, but his mk2 version and the enhancement looks pretty attractive, too.

To be honest, I'm not happy with his decision to release an improved version so shortly after the initial version. :bang:
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Post by Dogma »

i was JUST about to buy one of these - thank god i didnt...
They arent minor changes - the core is totally redesigned, mechanical noise waay lower, greatly improved VCA.....and the rest....
look up!
peripatitis

Post by peripatitis »

I hope they offer these improvements for the previous version. Any other arrangement would make me feel like a fool for pre-ordering.
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Nielsen
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Post by Nielsen »

peripatitis wrote:I hope they offer these improvements for the previous version. Any other arrangement would make me feel like a fool for pre-ordering.
No, there's no upgrade option for the 'old' mk1 as Carsten told me.
peripatitis

Post by peripatitis »

Nielsen wrote:
peripatitis wrote:I hope they offer these improvements for the previous version. Any other arrangement would make me feel like a fool for pre-ordering.
No, there's no upgrade option for the 'old' mk1 as Carsten told me.
Well if this is true it is a complete letdown, inexcusable i would even say.
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Bobby
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Post by Bobby »

yep as much as i love mine this is a bit rough especially as some traders are still selling the Mk1. I nearly bought two as well! :eek:
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Post by Bobby »

do we know what the differences are and why the revisions?


Tempted to skip on a HDH6 because of this. i didn't agree with some of the design choices (lack of CV inputs ect) and this aint inspiring me there won't be a better version next month.
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ianross
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Post by ianross »

Ah such is life in euro world.

I find it really remarkable the lack of criticality in the first place. Even in the demos online for the MkI I noticed the distortion and occasional buzziness, but nobody mentions this.



It was obvious there was room for improvement and I'm glad he improved it (we'll see how much) even if it upsets early adopters. It's not like the MkI can't still make fun crazy sounds. Maybe some people will even prefer it. Too early to tell.
Last edited by ianross on Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bobby
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Post by Bobby »

ianross wrote:Ah such is life in euro world.

I find it really remarkable the lack of criticality in the first place. Even in the demos online for the MkI I noticed the distortion and overall buzziness, but nobody mentions this.



It was obvious there was room for improvement and I'm glad he improved it (we'll see how much) even if it upsets early adopters.
..didnt buy one yourself then aye? :miley:
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ianross
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Post by ianross »

Bobby wrote:
ianross wrote:Ah such is life in euro world.

I find it really remarkable the lack of criticality in the first place. Even in the demos online for the MkI I noticed the distortion and overall buzziness, but nobody mentions this.



It was obvious there was room for improvement and I'm glad he improved it (we'll see how much) even if it upsets early adopters.
..didnt buy one yourself then aye? :miley:
I'm big on analog FM. I even lent a hand to Cyndustries to help with soldering some of their zeroscillators. I've gone through just about every revision of the Rubicon. Do you guys know there around eight revisions of it?

Thru-zero oscillators have so much going on when analog. I'd say, it's always safe to assume there will be revisions.

I commend Doepfer for making a relatively simple one so that there is less likely hood for revisions, but i'm sure there is still room there also.

I do wish companies would just wait and get it right, but I guess this euro world is just different in this way for now and "right" has turned into something pretty subjective here. I get the impression that the designers are also learning along the way.

But yes to answer your question, I did decide to wait.

The good news about Schippman, in this case, which I GREATLY admire, and I cannot extol enough, is that he at least takes the time to be open and upfront about all of these changes, and in great detail. I can't say the same for most if not ALL other manufacturers.
Last edited by ianross on Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
peripatitis

Post by peripatitis »

Bobby wrote:do we know what the differences are and why the revisions?


Tempted to skip on a HDH6 because of this. i didn't agree with some of the design choices (lack of CV inputs ect) and this aint inspiring me there won't be a better version next month.
There is a list in the website, nothing to do with adding cv-inputs though.
Cleaner tri/sines, less artifacts in pm, that sort of thing. Some i believe i have noticed myself, (for example when wiggling the fm mod knob with nothing connected you would get a frequency shift), others i hadn't and i don't know if i would even if i were working with the modular this period.



Btw this happens only 4 months after the first batch started to be delivered and i do remember when they were first announced there was a time period Carsten dedicated to fix some issues. Only after everything was ok according to him the pre-order begun.
Anyway i have two (plus all of his filters) so :deadbanana:
peripatitis

Post by peripatitis »

ianross wrote:Ah such is life in euro world.

I find it really remarkable the lack of criticality in the first place. Even in the demos online for the MkI I noticed the distortion and occasional buzziness, but nobody mentions this. .
Actually there was distortion which was supposed to be fixed.
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Post by Bobby »

ta, found it. a list for the sake of the thread (from: http://www.schippmann-music.com/downloa ... i_mkII.pdf):


What has been improved? Firstly, the VCO core:
CS-8 Series Omega-Phi mkII improvements
We are proud to announce the upcoming improved version of the high performance Thru-Zero Oscillator OMEGA-PHI mkII.
� a parasitic noise effect especially audible at low oscillator frequencies at the sine/tri outputs exactly when the thru-zero operation begins to start by FM-modulation through a sine modulator is
reduced by 15 db and is so no longer audible! � highly improved oscillator FM-stability by
a.) a new precision (and zero-tolerance trimmed) rectifier design leading to absolute constant FM harmonic results over the full range of modulation index from 0 to maximum → no longer FM-index depending detunes and beats!
b.) a new core-symmetry (and zero-tolerance trimmed) circuit for a perfect balanced triangle wave → no longer tendency to asymmetric tri/sine shapes accompanied by detunes and distortions at high ratios of FM-modulation frequency/carrier frequency (with rising FM-index)!
c.) improved thermal board design for better frequency stability even at very high frequencies (>20 kHz to 300 kHz) resulting in better frequency linearity at these them-self not audible frequencies. Nevertheless, very important for → stable modulation results, where these frequencies could come into being by high FM indices at higher carrier frequencies (>400 Hz)!
� extended maximum FM index from 44 to now 50.
-1-
�
smoother VCA-index curve for better control even around zero (starting of modulation, see graphic)
Max
Index
FM indices in both modes, DC and AC.
CS-8 Series Omega-Phi mkII improvements
Secondly, the VCO environment:
� completely new VCA design for FM and PM providing ultra low
noise and ultra low control feed-through capability
→ no longer constant or transient frequency shifts with varying
→ cleaner sound, especially for PM and also for FM at higher oscillator frequencies, where VCA noises become relevant.
~A
0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 110 120 130 140 150 Potentiometer-Angle
and/or VCA control voltage
1.4 ~A
� reduced potentiometer noises for PM Phi (-360° - +360°) and some other more.


Link: http://www.schippmann-music.com/downloa ... i_mkII.pdf
Last edited by Bobby on Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Bobby »

main issue ive suffered with is stability : its a one hit beast, if i don't record on the day it sound COMPLETELY different the next.

...before anyone says "thats euro" : my cwejman modules will sit solid for months, different beasts though i know.


EDIT: to clarify, my comment regarding cv-inputs/design was in regard to the HDH-6
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Post by Bobby »

...accidental post (meant to edit not quote)
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FatRocky
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Post by FatRocky »

What the fuck! mk2?

i'm still learning how to use the mk1?


i'm not buying it


i like the mk1 as it is


fuck
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Post by gonkulator »

FatRocky wrote:What the fuck! mk2?

i'm still learning how to use the mk1?


i'm not buying it


i like the mk1 as it is


fuck
I am a bit chapped, I would have happily waited for better, more stable CS-8s (I own two as well.) I really want to avoid listening to Mk1 and Mk 2 side by side.
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Post by tbecker »

I like my mk I and it sounds better to me than anything else like my Rubicon or DPO or FM aid. But it seems a bit of an AF to offer a new mkii when the US people have had these for like 4 weeks! And I can confirm, that there is no upgrade path, only a FU which it seems to be a cleaner thru-zero FU so I don't mind...
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Post by dubonaire »

ianross wrote:I've gone through just about every revision of the Rubicon. Do you guys know there around eight revisions of it?
No! Can you shed some light on that please?
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Post by Dogma »

ive just been on a long drive and i was thinking about this :

i would be so pissed off if i where one of the "early adopters" - this isnt a MKii - its the MKi with the problems that should have been picked up in design/pro-typing...

Your gonna be stuck with a MKi that might be OK - till you go to sell it....

This is wrong on every front for those that are current owners......id be totally livid.....

And ian Ross - i thought i heard all manner of WTF's which is why i didnt move heaven and earth to get one!
look up!
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Post by Schippmann »

Bobby wrote:main issue ive suffered with is stability : its a one hit beast, if i don't record on the day it sound COMPLETELY different the next. ...
Certainly not! The VCO is absolute stable. And that's not the kind of stabilty I'm takling about. If you have this problem you'll certainly find the reason in other modules, but NOT in this VCO! I have patched 3 and more VCO's to a very complex and sensitive FM system and the resuts are exactly the same every day and from the beginning of the cold start, perfect in every Herz.

I'm very sad about your reaction. With your mkI you have an EXCELLENT TZFM VCO and no one had any regrets, everybody was fully satisfied.

The announced improvements were neccessary in my opinion. TZFM VCO's are a VERY complex topic you can't do 100%ly with one release. I had to make experiences, had to learn and things need time to come up in mind, to come clear. Sorry, I'm a only a human.

Would you feel better when I would wait 2 years? Release of mkI was end of April. I sold at all 113 units in less than 4 weeks - I thought the same about the dealers. And now mkII was planned about 7 month later.

Relating the improvements: These are a quantum leap from maybe 95% to 99.1%, I would say. Very little tolerances of 0.1% and less are now trimmed to almost zero. These correction you will hear under extreme circumstances. From view of musicality they are not to overrate, please. The sound and stability will not change.

Sorry, that I was so fast. Only what I wanted was to give you the best I have to give. And at the first time of the mkI release it was the best I could give at that time.

C.S.
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Post by Dogma »

Schippmann wrote:
Bobby wrote:main issue ive suffered with is stability : its a one hit beast, if i don't record on the day it sound COMPLETELY different the next. ...
Certainly not! The VCO is absolute stable. And that's not the kind of stabilty I'm takling about. If you have this problem you'll certainly find the reason in other modules, but NOT in this VCO! I have patched 3 and more VCO's to a very complex and sensitive FM system and the resuts are exactly the same every day and from the beginning of the cold start, perfect in every Herz.

I'm very sad about your reaction. With your mkI you have an EXCELLENT TZFM VCO and no one had any regrets, everybody was fully satisfied.

The announced improvements were neccessary in my opinion. TZFM VCO's are a VERY complex topic you can't do 100%ly with one release. I had to make experiences, had to learn and things need time to come up in mind, to come clear. Sorry, I'm a only a human.

Would you feel better when I would wait 2 years? Release of mkI was end of April. I sold at all 113 units in less than 4 weeks - I thought the same about the dealers. And now mkII was planned about 7 month later.

Relating the improvements: These are a quantum leap from maybe 95% to 99.1%, I would say. Very little tolerances of 0.1% and less are now trimmed to almost zero. These correction you will hear under extreme circumstances. From view of musicality they are not to overrate, please. The sound and stability will not change.

Sorry, that I was so fast. Only what I wanted was to give you the best I have to give. And at the first time of the mkI release it was the best I could give at that time.

C.S.
To answer your question i would say yes - you should have waited till you got it right...its not like TZFM isnt now fairly mainstream -and accessible the 104-4 is about 150 bucks
look up!
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Post by Schippmann »

Dogma wrote:...you should have waited till you got it right...
This is not how development and electronic design works. Even AFTER a release of a final product, the mind of the designer re-starts again and produces new ideas. To wait wouldn't produce better results, because the designer is thinking he has done his work - he is satisfied with his work and is ready to release.

@ianross: Thank you very much for understanding me. You see the things in a good and right light!
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Post by akrylik »

Wow. The attitudes in this thread are disgusting. You buy a module and you think you are entitled to the designer's future output for the next 2 years --- for free even! This is hardware people. You bought an object and with support for using that object. Nothing else. If you want to purchase someone's output for a given period of time, you can, but it costs a LOT more than what you have paid so far.

Especially Dogma. I hope you are proud of yourself for trying to hold Schippmann accountable because you bought his module when you could have bought a 104-4 for 150 bucks. "You should have waited till you got it right" indeed. Schippmann pours huge amounts of work into his modules and you just threw it back at him like it was a piece of BL shit. Good job.
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