telephone game (can't get answer in snazzy subforum)

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Kingnimrod
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telephone game (can't get answer in snazzy subforum)

Post by Kingnimrod » Wed May 21, 2014 8:34 am

I'm looking for a per-knob/jack/switch explanation of the Telephone Game module.

Snazzy has provided a conversational walkthrough "manual" of using the module, but it's confusing and seems to mention at least one output that isn't on the final module.

Hopefully this topic won't be moved, as the sub forums seem to be kind of a dead end when makers don't visit often to answer questions.

And yes, I have asked for a detailed description directly over a month ago via email with no response.

If anyone can shed some light there are a few of us telephone game owners that would be grateful.

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Post by kstl » Wed May 21, 2014 8:53 am

I will follow this post because I'm thinking on get one... how is the module so far? is hard to use?

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Post by Kingnimrod » Wed May 21, 2014 9:06 am

It is interesting but I'd like to understand better what's going on as it seems to do things I don't understand.

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Post by kstl » Wed May 21, 2014 9:11 am

ok, thanks, will follow this for replies also

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Post by gonkulator » Wed May 21, 2014 9:27 am

Yeah, I have two modules right now, the instructions of which are at opposite ends: The Telephone Game, which describes how to use it, with little or no effective explanation of what the specific components do, and the Flame Arpeggiator, which explains each component only, with no examples, but unfortunately it is in a really opaque translation from German. For the Telephone Game, I am getting to understand it, but I still need some specifics on some parts. The problem is, I am learning by trial and error, observing what happens, assuming that it acts in a predictable and repeatable manner. However, a lot of the functions seem to be either really randomized, or are functioning erratically. For example, sometimes I get nothing at all out of the slew output, regardless of what I do.

For the Flame (ignore this OT part if you want) I am relegated to a lot of trial and error, but since there are menus and hotkeys, and some cryptic nomenclature, it has been a challenge, but I am making progress.

I actually think part of the fun of doing all of this is discovering what things do on my own. But I really think there is no excuse for lack of decent, basic documentation.

Note to manufacturers: I have worked of documentation like this. If you need help, contact me.
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Post by Kingnimrod » Wed May 21, 2014 9:35 am

The other downside to the lack of proper explanation, is figuring out whether the unit is functioning correctly to begin with.

Last time I checked it had been over a month since Snazzy's last visit to the forum, so perhaps he'll be back soon with a detailed description. I hope.

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Post by gonkulator » Wed May 21, 2014 11:23 am

Kingnimrod wrote:The other downside to the lack of proper explanation, is figuring out whether the unit is functioning correctly to begin with.
Exactly.

I decided to (duh) observe through the Jones O'Tool I just got. Some some revealing stuff. Will post some of this later today.
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Post by demorgan » Wed May 21, 2014 12:01 pm

Glad this thread exists. Will be paying very close attention.

:eyes:

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Post by ignatius » Wed May 21, 2014 12:02 pm

this module is a party imo. i love it. i don't 100% understand every detail but i find it fun to explore and i don't mind not knowing it like the back of my hand. his videos are good at showing what's possible and give a good indication of what is happening.

i could be wrong but i think it's one of those modules where the creator is intending for people to discover on their own how it works and what it does and what is possible. :despair:

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Post by Kingnimrod » Wed May 21, 2014 1:57 pm

it does some crazy stuff yes, but I'd like to understand what each control does and how they interact. Take the MakeNoise Wogglebug - thorough manual, yet still plenty to discover with it.

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Post by ignatius » Wed May 21, 2014 2:43 pm

Kingnimrod wrote:it does some crazy stuff yes, but I'd like to understand what each control does and how they interact. Take the MakeNoise Wogglebug - thorough manual, yet still plenty to discover with it.
not at all disputing the need to know.. just saying.. it may be snazzy's plan to let people figure it out.. for better or worse. or he may have not gotten to manual yet. manuals seem to be low on the list of priorities for manufacturers.

in a couple of the videos he talks about what many of the features are. i got a lot of info from those and got pointed in the right direction.

i'm a fan of manuals too but i try not to let it hold me back

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Post by gonkulator » Wed May 21, 2014 3:15 pm

(Edit: I have edited this and added some more information based on additional observations):

Here are some observations, and I am happy to be corrected on anything.

Overall, this outputs S&H at One, Three, Five, and Sum, which output when the clock taps them. Slew outputs either a log (?) curved function of the Input waveform (Morph), or a slewed version of the output at Five.

Input:
(a plug here disables the internal noise source, so if it is turned fully CCW, there won't be any output.)

The Input waveform determines the shape of the S&H outputs at One, Three, Five, and Sum, as well as shaping the Slew output. For example, a Triangle input will output a S&H that is an ascending and descending stair-step with a linear slope. A Saw input will output an ascending (or descending) stair-step (then reset, and ascend again.) The amplitude of the step seems to be a function of the slope of the input waveform, so, in the previous two examples, the step amounts seem to be constant. However, a Sine wave input will output steps that are constantly changing, so at the top and bottom of the curve (near slope = 0), the steps are real small, but at the crossing points, the steps are at the maximum.

The Input knob determines the amplitude of the steps.

The Five and Sum knobs are bipolar. (I didn't realize this until recently, as the graphics are small, and mostly covered up by the knobs. Knowing this explained a lot!)

Outputs:

As stated above, One, Three, Five, and Sum output S&H waveforms, and Slew outputs either a slewed version of Five, or a slewed version of the input wave (or the noise, if nothing is plugged in? I need to test this.)
The following photos illustrate this (Input is red, output is green):

Below: Input Knob at 9:00 with a Tri LFO; Output at Three

Image

Below: Input Knob at 3:00 with a Tri LFO; Output at Three

Image

One and Three: seem to be the same type of S&H, just tapped at different points rhythmically according to the clock rate.

Five seems to be the same type of S&H as One and Three, except that is has a bipolar output (+/- 5 volts or so.)

Here is an illustration. It also shows the variable S&H amplitude based on the changing Sine slope:

Below: Input knob full CW with a Sine wave LFO, Five knob full CW, Output at Five

Image


Sum: This is some sort of combination of the other three S&H outputs, plus there are S&H taps at "2" and "4" which don't have their own individual outputs. It also has a bipolar output (+/- 10v.) It also has a Feedback input. My only observation of the Feedback is that it lets you adjust the randomness of the step amplitude.

Sum feedback knob seems to effect the amplitude at outputs One and Three (maybe five also?) with larger amplitude changes as well.

Slew:

The SLEW switch has two options:

Morph: This is a slewed version of the input waveform. So, for example, a square wave will become more like a ascending and descending log curve, a triangle will become more curved toward a sine, and so on. This setting doesn't need a clock to give an output.

See these examples:

Below: Slew Knob at 9:00; Input = square wave, Slew output, Morph setting

Image

Below:

Slew Knob at 3:00; Input = square wave, Slew output, Morph setting

Image

Five: This seems to be a slewed version or the output at Five, so it is a kind of slewed S&H. It looks a lot like the graphic on the front panel. This does need a clock.

Clock observations: The three clock divider modes, 0, 1, and 5 work like this: 1 and 5 output a clock signal once each cycle (i.e., every five steps.) Oddly, The 1 setting outputs the clock at the 5 tap, and the 5 setting outputs the clock at the 1 tap. The 0 setting outputs a clock at each of the 5 S&H taps, so 5 clock ticks per cycle. In other words, 1 and 5 send clock outs every fifth clock input tick. 0 matches ticks with the clock input.

The other clock setting, a and b: b outputs a S&H signal at every tick, so five taps per cycle; a outputs outputs a tap per step on the first cycle, then holds the value of the last step during the next cycle, then starts again. I hope that makes sense.

Another thing that was noticed by Kingnimrod is that the values held and looped during the loop cycle tend to increase over time, so if you hold the loop mode for several cycles, you will notice the change. Not sure what to make of this, but I decided to try this with a quantizer (and then into 1v/oct on an osc), and it becomes an ascending arpeggio progression. based on the scale you set.

One additional observation: There is a kind of noise spike that comes out from the one (and sum, since it includes the one output) under certain conditions. From my observation, if the input waveform is faster than about 2 hz, you will begin to notice it. I don't notice it every cycle, and it may be completely un-noticeable depending on how you are using it. I was told that it is a result of the TG catching up with the input waveform at each cycle. It seems to me the the nature of the spike may depend on the input waveform slope, but I am not sure. This may be a non-issue for most people, but I wanted to mention it.
Last edited by gonkulator on Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by gonkulator » Wed May 21, 2014 3:56 pm

ignatius wrote:
not at all disputing the need to know.. just saying.. it may be snazzy's plan to let people figure it out.. for better or worse. or he may have not gotten to manual yet. manuals seem to be low on the list of priorities for manufacturers.
...
i'm a fan of manuals too but i try not to let it hold me back
I am not really a fan of manuals, but not really a fan of needless trial and error either. (Of course, if I hadn't purchased a s-load of modules all within a month, maybe I could be more patient.) He has put a lot of instructions out, but they are "here is what you do" instead of "Here is what it does." I think the priority should be explaining what it does first, especially to this audience. We can usually take it from there. Usually, maybe...
ignatius wrote:
in a couple of the videos he talks about what many of the features are. i got a lot of info from those and got pointed in the right direction.

i'm a fan of manuals too but i try not to let it hold me back
I got very little from them, as I couldn't tell what he was saying; I also couldn't tell what was doing what in the module chain. Regardless, it did help sell me on the module.
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Post by Kingnimrod » Wed May 21, 2014 4:55 pm

thanks for doing that. Going to run it through my o'tool tonight later as well.

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Post by ignatius » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:18 pm

:tu: :tu: :tu:

gonkulator thanks for doing that. i's very helpful!

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Post by midiguru » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:27 am

ignatius wrote::tu: :tu: :tu:

gonkulator thanks for doing that. i's very helpful!
Agreed.

I'm still not sure why there are five stages being summed.

In my first trials, I'd have to say this module is less snazzy than I wish it was, but your explanations help a great deal.

The loop gate input is a toggle. Rising-edge trigger signals turn the loop on and off alternately. I think an actual on/off gate would be more convenient than a toggle, but you can get some interesting patterns by sending this jack a slow gate.

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Post by ignatius » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:31 am

just posting here so it gets around

Image

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Post by gonkulator » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:24 am

midiguru wrote:
I'm still not sure why there are five stages being summed.
It's the only output that gives you "2" and "4." I think "Sum" maybe should be called "mix" as they aren't being summed in a voltage sense, more like all five stages being sequenced one after another, although it seems that feedback does add some voltage, but I am not sure.
midiguru wrote:
you can get some interesting patterns by sending this jack a slow gate.
I haven't tried that, thanks for the tip.
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Post by Funky40 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:03 pm

here the in the OP mentioned original infos from "loss"
viewtopic.php?p=1368348#1368348

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Post by loss1234 » Thu May 14, 2015 6:52 am

There is a manual for this module up on the snazzy fx site

Also the sum output IS a sum of all five voltages (in the typical summing amp sense ) and since they are separated in time, they overlap in interesting ways

Thnx

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Post by glennfin » Thu May 14, 2015 7:14 am

I've been considering this module for my next module order.... glad to see there's a manual.......

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Post by Neo » Thu May 14, 2015 7:49 am


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Post by Summa » Mon May 18, 2015 4:06 am

Neo wrote:The manual can be found here:
http://snazzyfx.com/workspace/uploads-d ... -final.pdf
:lol: :lol: It's lovely, especially the handwritten patch examples!

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