Rehousing a Power-One HBB-15 for Eurorack

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Fidgit
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Post by Fidgit »

roglok, just a sidenote to your thread: you take some seriously decent pictures of the rack and your DIY work. proper focus and depth of field, well illuminated objects, well exposed, neutral background... very nice. :tu:
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Post by ringstone »

roglok wrote:Bad news is that the mofo indeed hums/vibrates. It's not that bad, but enough to slightly annoy me.

What type of toroid should I get in case I replace it?

18V secondary for 15 DC, right? What about current rating? The Power One delivers 1.5A per rail...

Can you recommend a specific manufacturer?
You'll probably have a different range of brands/model available to you there in Germany from that which we see here in Australia (I'm guessing you probably have a lot more to choose from actually!).

If I have to replace a conventional transformer with a toroid, as I've had to do with some vintage synths I've repaired, I look at the details from the service notes and then scan Element 14 for the closest to that spec. So I usually end up with one of their in-house brand ones.

The problem with the Power-Ones is the lack of hard data on them. I'm guessing the transformer is probably something like an 18-20V CT model, though, as you say. For an 18-0-18V CT I think you would be looking at a power rating of around around 60VA - if someone else could double check my back-of-envelope calculation there BTW I'd appreciate it. :hihi:

The larger Power-Ones are a bit more problematic in that they are multi-tapped, it's hard to find modern replacements for those sort of custom wound transformers.

Cheers
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roglok
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Post by roglok »

Fidgit wrote:roglok, just a sidenote to your thread: you take some seriously decent pictures of the rack and your DIY work. proper focus and depth of field, well illuminated objects, well exposed, neutral background... very nice. :tu:
thanks! that's my trusty Olympus E-520 with one of the kit lenses and a bit of daylight through the window. some minor contrast adjustments to the RAW file, but essentially no extra efforts made there... i bought a macro lens a while ago - tons of fun!
ringstone wrote:You'll probably have a different range of brands/model available to you there in Germany from that which we see here in Australia (I'm guessing you probably have a lot more to choose from actually!).
that's true, there are lots of manufacturers around here.

ringstone wrote:The problem with the Power-Ones is the lack of hard data on them. I'm guessing the transformer is probably something like an 18-20V CT model, though, as you say. For an 18-0-18V CT I think you would be looking at a power rating of around around 60VA - if someone else could double check my back-of-envelope calculation there BTW I'd appreciate it. :hihi:
thanks for the info! was looking at these:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/310316829996
http://www.ebay.de/itm/330878581827

both should both be well within your estimated specs, the first being manufactured by a company who has been winding quality toroids for over 80 years (hence the somewhat steeper price, i guess...)

but before ordering, it would be awesome if someone would be so kind to confirm that these will do the job :tu:
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roglok
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Post by roglok »

Does anyone have a Power-One 1.5A schematic/service manual? Or any other means to determine which transformer would fit? Either would make me very happy! :stardance:
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Post by wavehead »

just in case anyone knows this in addition, does anyone know which transformers work well with the the 3.2A Power One HCC-15-3-AG - or is this one of the models that is multi-tapped? i have been considering trying an upgrade for it as well as adding that separate protection circuit for voltage spikes they make for the supplies.
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Post by constantin3000 »

your build looks really nice! Right now I am also looking for a power supply, and these seem quite nice. I just couldn't find a german distributer.
did you get the power supply via a german distributer or via mouser/farnell?
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roglok
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Post by roglok »

constantin3000 wrote:your build looks really nice! Right now I am also looking for a power supply, and these seem quite nice. I just couldn't find a german distributer.
did you get the power supply via a german distributer or via mouser/farnell?
This particular supply was built in 1987! US eBay is flooded with these OEM PSUs, but in Germany they are almost non-existent. I actually had mine shipped from the USA. Although the PSUs themselves are dirt cheap, you shouldn't forget about extra costs for shipping, customs and eventual capacitor replacements (I replaced all electrolytics including the big reservoir caps). Overall I think I wouldn't do this again and rather build one from scratch instead...
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constantin3000
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Post by constantin3000 »

that power supply is pretty much my age :D

I also did notice the high shipping costs on ebay. And that was the reason I looked for a german distributer. But then I just checked mouser again and apparently the power supply "qualifies for discounted shipping" as it's above their 65€ threshold. Seems like a good deal.

http://de.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Powe ... iiBVL5U%3d

It does say it has 1.7A on 12V and 0.7A on -12V but I think they just mixed something up, in the datasheet it is listed as having 1.7A on both lines.
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Post by LED-man »

i got the same power one PSU but its wired at 12V /-12V
whats to change for -15V and +15V

maybe a photo from a 15V version can help.

thanks
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roglok
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Post by roglok »

LED-man wrote:i got the same power one PSU but its wired at 12V /-12V
whats to change for -15V and +15V

maybe a photo from a 15V version can help.

thanks
the required changes are printed directly onto the stock aluminium case/heatsink...
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Post by LED-man »

roglok wrote:
LED-man wrote:i got the same power one PSU but its wired at 12V /-12V
whats to change for -15V and +15V

maybe a photo from a 15V version can help.

thanks
the required changes are printed directly onto the stock aluminium case/heatsink...
yes but at the power out connection pins are bridges - and this are not described on the alu plate.
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Post by roglok »

LED-man wrote:
roglok wrote:
LED-man wrote:i got the same power one PSU but its wired at 12V /-12V
whats to change for -15V and +15V

maybe a photo from a 15V version can help.

thanks
the required changes are printed directly onto the stock aluminium case/heatsink...
yes but at the power out connection pins are bridges - and this are not described on the alu plate.
Are you referring to the sense outputs? If not using them, they should be connected to +V, -V and COM respectively - but this is not related to the voltage setting. FWIW you only need to readjust the trimmers to the desired voltage.
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Post by LED-man »

roglok wrote:
LED-man wrote:
roglok wrote:
LED-man wrote:i got the same power one PSU but its wired at 12V /-12V
whats to change for -15V and +15V

maybe a photo from a 15V version can help.

thanks
the required changes are printed directly onto the stock aluminium case/heatsink...
yes but at the power out connection pins are bridges - and this are not described on the alu plate.
Are you referring to the sense outputs? If not using them, they should be connected to +V, -V and COM respectively - but this is not related to the voltage setting. FWIW you only need to readjust the trimmers to the desired voltage.
I measure this evenning the Ports. Thx for the Support.
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roglok
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Post by roglok »

My Power Supply adventures continue :boat:.

Following the invaluable advice found in posts by Dave Jones and Graham Hinton, this is what I came up with:

Image

Image

The sense lines are probably overkill considering the short cable runs, but since there were so many unused connectors on the terminal block, I thought why not just wire them up... The wire is stranded 1.5 mm² (~ AWG 15) and hooked up via blade connectors. This is probably way oversized for the sense lines, since they don't carry a lot of current, but it's what I had at hand. Don't get confused by the green/yellow cable. Usually this colour is used for earth connections, but I've used it for COM (0V).

The bus boards are made from stripboard. I've beefed up the connections with lots of solder and doubled all jumper wires to decrease impedance. There are two 100uF electrolytics on the underside of each board.

Hope all this makes sense - if not, please enlighten me! :tu:
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Post by LED-man »

Looks very good.
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Post by roglok »

One of the smaller busboards showing the solder reinforcement:

Image

Image
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Post by Rigo »

roglok wrote:Image
What's the piece in between the connector boards ?
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roglok
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Post by roglok »

What's the piece in between the connector boards ?
That's the main distribution strip for the bus boards. I think the connectors are called blade or flat connectors ('Flachstecker' in German). It will sit in the centre of a 9U Eurorack system. Apart from serving as a multiplier for the power lines, it's also the point where the remote sensing lines are connected. As said, all this is probably overkill, but why skimp on the most essential part of your system? :mrgreen:
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Post by Rigo »

roglok wrote:
What's the piece in between the connector boards ?
That's the main distribution strip for the bus boards. I think the connectors are called blade or flat connectors ('Flachstecker' in German). It will sit in the centre of a 9U Eurorack system. Apart from serving as a multiplier for the power lines, it's also the point where the remote sensing lines are connected. As said, all this is probably overkill, but why skimp on the most essential part of your system? :mrgreen:
Did you assemble it yourself, or can one buy it somewhere ? I have a PowerOne PSU (3.4A one) with 6 busboards connected, but I am not happy about the way I connected them :sadbanana:
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Post by JohnLRice »

:hail: Seriously great work here, both DIY and pictures! :love: I'm sorry I didn't see this thread until now!

As I read through I had a couple suggestions but you handled it all at this point. :tu: But since I thought it through, I'll ramble anyways about it. :mrgreen:

One minor thing was that for the nuts that mount the transformer, I'd use cap nuts instead, just to make it look a little nicer and less chance of catching clothing on them or scratching surfaces (although if you have a cat, it would probably prefer to have the bolt ends sticking out! :hihi: )

Image

Image

Or, if you replaced the bolts completely with some ones with nice looking heads, you could put them in the opposite way, bolt head on the outside of the panel and the nut on the inside. And if you did that, you could put short standoffs on the ends of the bolts and attach a protection plate to it.

I have quite a few threads on power supplies, here's one:
viewtopic.php?t=2628

I think I usually just solder the wires to the transformers and then cover with heat shrink tubing but at least once or twice I used slip on crimp connectors and it has worked out fine.

Image


Here's a couple other pics while I'm at it:
Image

Image
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Post by Graham Hinton »

roglok wrote: Image
A few points:

1) Sleeve the other transformer primary connections. It looks like two 115V primaries in series and the join is just as dangerous to touch. I'm not sure what the fifth connection is, but it may be an extra voltage tap in which case it is dangerous too.

2) Connect the Mains Earth to your 0V on the commoning block. This is not optional or a preference, it is essential for safety.

3) You lost the short earth wire in the earlier pictures and it looked like it was intended to connect to a panel, but if you want all the frame to be earthed it will need a separate bonding wire to each panel and rail. Do not rely on anodised aluminium for continuity, aluminium oxide is an insulator.

4) I think you are in Germany? IEC inlets should be double fused types because Schuko plugs are reversable and Live and Neutral may be the other way round.
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Post by JohnLRice »

All excellent points, Graham, I wish I would have thought of some of those myself! :doh:
Graham Hinton wrote:I'm not sure what the fifth connection is, but it may be an extra voltage tap in which case it is dangerous too.
FYI: you are correct, the #5 tap is used for 100, 200 and 210 VAC.
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Post by roglok »

Graham, thank you very much for pointing out these important safety concerns.
Graham Hinton wrote:1) Sleeve the other transformer primary connections. It looks like two 115V primaries in series and the join is just as dangerous to touch. I'm not sure what the fifth connection is, but it may be an extra voltage tap in which case it is dangerous too.
I wasn't aware of that and will cover them up, of course.
2) Connect the Mains Earth to your 0V on the commoning block. This is not optional or a preference, it is essential for safety.
Should I connect Mains Earth to the same point (screw on chassis) where the other Earth connections join, or create a separate connection? This image shows a separate screw:

Image

However, I'm guessing that the suggested "Loop Breaker" (labelled as 'Optional') is probably not a great idea safety-wise, so I'm not sure if this is a diagram to follow...

3) You lost the short earth wire in the earlier pictures and it looked like it was intended to connect to a panel, but if you want all the frame to be earthed it will need a separate bonding wire to each panel and rail. Do not rely on anodised aluminium for continuity, aluminium oxide is an insulator.
That wire still exists and is indeed supposed to connect to the chassis. My modules will be powder coated, thus insulated. How exactly do you suggest to ground the panels mechanically? A screw and blade connector to each, all leading to a common terminal screw? Is this really necessary in case I can eliminate the possibility of a mains wire touching anything but the chassis?
4) I think you are in Germany? IEC inlets should be double fused types because Schuko plugs are reversable and Live and Neutral may be the other way round.
Germany is correct. The double fused type is installed.

I appreciate your advice!

John, thanks for the compliments, but it seems like I have some serious homework to do :oops:
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Post by Graham Hinton »

roglok wrote:Should I connect Mains Earth to the same point (screw on chassis) where the other Earth connections join, or create a separate connection?
A single post with both connectors on would be better, then the earthing of the 0V is not dependent on two connections that may oxidise over time. Getting a good chassis connection is a lot harder than you may think. Aluminium forms a one molecule layer of aluminium oxide as soon as it is exposed to air, steel may rust, platings may oxidise or react to human sweat (especially the newer RoHS varieties). There is a variety of special hardware for dealing with this, but you have to hunt it down. There are various spiked washers and tabs that cut through an anodised or paint finish, but the best is something that is welded to become part of the panel before it is finished.

When trying to test this type of connection you are dealing with resistances too low to be measured on normal multimeters and you need either a 4-wire ohmeter or a PAT tester. The latter tests by injecting 6A or 25A currents through the paths and measuring the voltage developed.
However, I'm guessing that the suggested "Loop Breaker" (labelled as 'Optional') is probably not a great idea safety-wise, so I'm not sure if this is a diagram to follow...
No, I've sacked people for better work.
That wire still exists and is indeed supposed to connect to the chassis. My modules will be powder coated, thus insulated. How exactly do you suggest to ground the panels mechanically? A screw and blade connector to each, all leading to a common terminal screw?
It is difficult to get a good chassis ground to Euro module panels without using EMC compliant hardware. You won't achieve proper screening anyway, but the important safety feature is that all exposed metal should be grounded. This includes the screens on patch leads plugged to it even if the jacks have plastic bushings. This is why the 0V must be connected to Earth. Metal toggle switches can have ring tabs behind the panel to connect to the bushing.
Is this really necessary in case I can eliminate the possibility of a mains wire touching anything but the chassis?
Just because the mains wiring is short does not mean that the risk is eliminated. You have to think in a different way for safety, like a devil's advocate, you are dealing with situations that might never happen, but could be fatal if they did. One way that your system could become live is if the transformer overheated enough to melt some internal insulation and Live was connected to a secondary. Or, in your case, something hits the exposed bobbin at the back. Also consider what could happen if a component failed, like the bridge rectifier or the reserviour capacitor...

One way of protecting the transformer is to mount a thermal cutout switch on the panel next to it and in series with the primary. They are round with two faston tabs and come in different trip temperatures, 90 deg C would be about right, just above the normal transformer temperature rise. Better transformers have an internal thermal fuse at about 130 deg C, but if that goes the transformer is a write off so a lower external thermal cutout is better. I'm not sure what total power you are running, but a 3U panel is a bit small for a heatsink so it may be 60 to 70 deg C at full load.
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Post by fuzzbass »

roglok wrote:One of the smaller busboards showing the solder reinforcement:

Image

Image
I know this is an old thread, but I noticed you used a PowerOne15-1.5 linear supply, and your Euro rack is approximate same capacity as mine, which is 9U by 104HP. Loaded up with modules, my supply is running hot. A couple of my modules are power hungry mofos (West Coast Mini Synth and 4ms PEG, both of these bench tested to gobble 100ma on the +12v rail. The PSU frame is so hot I can't keep my hand on it for more than one second. The frame is exposed through the rear of the case, and the PSU is internally enclosed with forced air cooling via 12v fan. I have not taken any amperage reading from the rails yet. Is this just generally to be expected from this supply, in a case of these approximate dimensions? What did you find with yours? Thanks.
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