Monitors for video-synthesis:

Discussion of modular and standalone video generating/processing techniques and associated hardware.

Moderators: Kent, luketeaford, Joe., daverj

Post Reply
User avatar
studio460
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1904
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by studio460 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:51 pm

I still have a 1990s-era Sony 35" CRT in the garage . . . but it's in the garage. I shudder to think of the half-dozen or so perfectly good flat-screen 15" Toshiba TVs I just threw away—they had both component and S-Video I/O. I bought these in 2005 for a homemade video dub-rack I was making. Not to mention the 36" flat-screen Sony SD and HD CRTs which went to electronics-recycling in 2020. Oh well. Here's the three CRTs I managed to hold onto:

• Sony 35" Trinitron CRT (curved-screen).
• Dell and HP 15" and 17" Amiga-compatible CRTs.

I can Dutch-mount (tripod-plate at 90°) my Sony DSR450 standard-def 2/3" broadcast camera on a Vinten Vision 5 fluid-head, with the tripod mounted on a cheap track-dolly (which rolls on either Matthews steel-track or ABS pipe) to accommodate both Z-axis roll and Z-axis distance-control for off-monitor shooting. The DSR450 is also capable of slow-shutter for some extra dreamy, in-camera effects.

To be able to monitor my inputs more easily, I'm about to order some dual-rackmount 7" flat-screen monitors to install into my Middle Atlantic 6U 19" wall-mounts. These are the cheapest B+H carries—no HDMI-input, but they have a composite BNC loop-through in the back in addition to a handy front-panel BNC composite-input:

Image
Unique Product Solutions dual 7" rackmount monitor with loop-through ($229).

One B+H customer reported that these don't include power supplies, so I also ordered two Watson 12V/2A PSUs at $11.95 each. Other than that, customer reports indicate high satisfaction with these monitors. The nice thing about ordering from B+H is that they discount the sales tax from your total if paying with their Payboo credit card. Your total out-the-door price with the added PSUs comes to $241.90 each.
Last edited by studio460 on Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
Huba-Swift
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 9:20 pm
Location: Pretty much Vancouver, Canada

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by Huba-Swift » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:16 pm

Interesting topic. I'll be following as it sounds like we are in similar situations. I've got a 36" trinitron that is too large to have next to my modular equipment, and my arcade CRTs aren't much smaller. The only one I could fit in, only fit next to my speaker... Which for anyone who knows CRTs knows that isn't a good idea.

Just today I placed an order for a single rack unit of three 6" PVMs that I will be trying out, I also might be getting 4-6 9" PVMs and a 20" medical PVM to mess around with, maybe I'll try a video matrixer to span an image across multiple sets??? That's something I still don't know much about but sounds like it may be fun. I'm thinking it might also be interesting to use the 20" PVM as a main monitor, with the set of 3 6" monitors showing only the R, G and B values of the image. These are all being imported so they might take some time to arrive, and some if not most will need some more time for me to perform repairs on them once they do.

Sorry, I don't have much to add in terms of product recommendations as I'm still quite new to video synthesis, and unaware of what's all available myself. More or less just piggybacking and sharing what direction I'm planning on taking with my monitor setup.

User avatar
studio460
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1904
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by studio460 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:18 pm

The Sony triple-PVMs should be very good for our applications. Kudos! I'm new to video-synthesis as well, but have been working in broadcast TV since I was 19. Where may I ask did your source the PVMs from? Seems like a good score!
Huba-Swift wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:16 pm
. . . I also might be getting 4-6 9" PVMs and a 20" medical PVM to mess around with, maybe I'll try a video matrixer to span an image across multiple sets??? That's something I still don't know much about but sounds like it may be fun. I'm thinking it might also be interesting to use the 20" PVM as a main monitor, with the set of 3 6" monitors showing only the R, G and B values of the image . . .
That all sounds super-cool! Great idea for multiple-monitor applications. Would love to see you post some photos of your set-up once it all arrives!
Image

User avatar
Huba-Swift
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 9:20 pm
Location: Pretty much Vancouver, Canada

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by Huba-Swift » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:40 pm

studio460 wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:18 pm
The Sony triple-PVMs should be very good for our applications. Kudos! I'm new to video-synthesis as well, but have been working in broadcast TV since I was 19. Where may I ask did your source the PVMs from? Seems like a good score!
Huba-Swift wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:16 pm
. . . I also might be getting 4-6 9" PVMs and a 20" medical PVM to mess around with, maybe I'll try a video matrixer to span an image across multiple sets??? That's something I still don't know much about but sounds like it may be fun. I'm thinking it might also be interesting to use the 20" PVM as a main monitor, with the set of 3 6" monitors showing only the R, G and B values of the image . . .
That all sounds super-cool! Great idea for multiple-monitor applications. Would love to see you post some photos of your set-up once it all arrives!
They are all imported from Japan as it seems PVM prices haven't skyrocketed there. I don't know whether or not I can recommend it yet as 1: I haven't got hit with exact shipping quotes yet, and 2: I don't know how well these will hold up in shipping. I am able to request additional packaging where they add an extra box and loads of bubble-wrap, so I will be doing that for all of them.

Within a month or so I should know if it all goes well. If it does and is something I can recommend trying, Ill give out more specifics/links for anyone interested. I think the most expensive PVM of the lot came to ~$55. Most are in the $10-$40 range. I'm expecting shipping to add $80-$300 to each PVM depending on size, so that is the real cost right there, and is also the reason I opted for mostly smaller sets, I figure those should have a better chance of holding up in shipping too.

I did notice that BVMs were still quite expensive in Japan it seems, couldn't find any real steals on those, though they were still cheaper than here. around $500-1000 for a 14"-20" BVM roughly.

User avatar
studio460
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1904
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by studio460 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:54 pm

Ah, thanks! I work at a major TV network. They threw away millions of dollars of BVMs, Grass Valley switchers, terminal gear, etc. when we moved a few years ago.
Image

User avatar
Huba-Swift
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 9:20 pm
Location: Pretty much Vancouver, Canada

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by Huba-Swift » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:04 pm

studio460 wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:54 pm
Ah, thanks! I work at a major TV network. They threw away millions of dollars of BVMs, Grass Valley switchers, terminal gear, etc. when we moved a few years ago.
Doesn't surprise me at all. Similarly, the arcade I work for has thrown away thousands in old Arcade machines that would be considered collectors items nowadays. I've also known large churches that have tossed millions in audio equipment. It always hurts to hear these stories. Makes me think it wouldn't be a bad idea to reach out to some of these companies to see if they have anything to offload, though it often seems as if they'd rather just toss thousands in gear rather than the unknown of an individual taking/buying it from them. Did your work at least give you the chance to cherry-pick anything before they tossed it?

User avatar
studio460
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1904
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by studio460 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:22 pm

NO! They did not! They wouldn't donate any of it either (which they used to do to schools and churches). Guess why? They were afraid of liability issues. The horror . . . dozens of working BetacamSP and U-matic VTRs from our show alone. I was going to grab a U-matic deck (I was one of the very last ones to move some gear to the new location), but if caught, it was technically grand theft.
Image

User avatar
Huba-Swift
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 9:20 pm
Location: Pretty much Vancouver, Canada

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by Huba-Swift » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:23 am

Time to go dumpster diving!

Seriously though, OUCH!

User avatar
waveglider
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1251
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:49 am
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by waveglider » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:32 am

studio460 wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:54 pm
AThey threw away millions of dollars of BVMs, Grass Valley switchers, terminal gear, etc. when we moved a few years ago.
Pretty sure it all ended up at Apex Electronics in Sun Valley..

User avatar
studio460
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1904
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by studio460 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:56 am

Sort of related—just ordered this composite-to-HDTV upscaler from B+H (also converts Y/Pb/Pr-to-HDMI). Doh! Now I need a rack of HDMI-monitors also.

I bought it because often the images on Structure's built-in display look really nice, but then on a large TV, the limited resolution becomes really obvious. I figured upscaling Structure's output should sharpen things up (when I want them sharpened), then the final output can also go through my HDMI-processing gear (e.g., Black Magic ATEM + Intensity).

Image
Image
Black Box AVSC-VIDEO-HDMI component/composite-to-HDMI scaler ($214.95)
Image

User avatar
Huba-Swift
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 9:20 pm
Location: Pretty much Vancouver, Canada

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by Huba-Swift » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:21 pm

Follow-up regarding the PVMs I mentioned earlier in the thread: I had the first three arrive today. All were sold as is for about $55. Shipping came to about $80-100 per 9" PVM, extra protective packaging added around $15 per PVM. Didn't get hit with import fees luckily. Total per 9" PVM was probably about $160 or so.

The 9041qm PVMs I got sell for around $400-$600 plus shipping on eBay judging from sold listings, and the 9040me PVMs which I got many of, are listed around $200 plus shipping (in the cases I saw was $150). Needless to say even when importing from Japan, the value seems much better for these.

As for damages in transit. I have had no issues with any of the 3 PVMs I received so far. That being said I've always had good luck with DHL in my area and the person delivering the package mentioned how his boss specified to make sure my packages were handled carefully, and I believe it! Not a single dent in the boxes. I was genuinely amazed.

Anyways, if anyone else is interested in getting PVMs from Japan it seems like it can be a viable option. I got all mine off of Japan Yahoo auctions, using proxy services such as Buyee or From Japan. I saw some larger PVMs/BVMs still go for high prices, so not everything is a bargain, but still worth keeping an eye out for those interested.

User avatar
studio460
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1904
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by studio460 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:38 pm

Good to hear they all came unscathed! Thank you for posting all the details. Still makes me cry that I could've had all that for free!!! Really excited to put my Structure through that upscaler (Jewish holidays have really delayed my order). I bet the quality will be decent since it's made by a pro audio-visual manufacturer based in the US (not some import piece of crap that doesn't even work).
Image

User avatar
studio460
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1904
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by studio460 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:07 pm

Finally!

. . . I can see my work! I just got my two rackmount 7" dual-monitors by Unique Product Solutions from B+H (four monitors, total). The goal is to have a preview-style monitor (like in a TV studio control room) for every analog video device, so that I know what I have (will add 7" HDMI-capable, rackmount dual-monitors next).

• Affordably priced at $229.95 each (free shipping and no tax if using B+H's credit card).
• Dual 7" TFT LCD screens have excellent colorimetry/resolution + wide viewing-angle.
• Composite-video inputs only..
• Front and rear BNC-inputs, plus one looped rear BNC-output.
• Full-SD resolution 16:9 display: 840x480.
• Auto-stretches 4:3 video to 16:9.
• Watson Pro 1PS-12V2A-21 (12VDC/2A/2.1mm) works with this monitor (not included).
• Cannot remove handrails.

The front BNC-input is uber-convenient for our applications and the chief reason for me choosing these—kind of the perfect composite preview-monitor. The loop-out is an added bonus; also, there's no ugly/distracting branding. Warning: No included PSU, so make sure to buy one (e.g., the Watson, mentioned above); dual-monitor requires 12VDC/1.2A/2.1mm-plug.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Unique Product Solutions 7" rackmount dual-TFT LCD monitors ($229.95).

Image
Watson Pro PS-12V2A-21 power supply ($11.95).
Image

User avatar
Huba-Swift
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 9:20 pm
Location: Pretty much Vancouver, Canada

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by Huba-Swift » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:18 pm

Those look really great, especially at only $230. I'm surprised that as a modern piece of equipment they only do composite, but I suppose that's all most need for video synth applications anyways. Would be neat to see a eurorack style cabinet consisting of two columns of 19" rack frames and use your displays and other associated video equipment right alongside the euro. Might be something I'll try once I outgrow my current 9U 84hp case, which between the pre-ordered Chromagnon and other DIY kits currently shipping, already has been outgrown.

Just this morning I had three more 9" PVMs arrive, so I'm up to six, though I don't have enough power/signal cables to hook them all up. Cables are on the way though! All of them were bought as-is, which means of course some will have issues, and sure enough half didn't work out of the box. Fixing up the three busted PVMs was super easy, except for one which unfortunately has a dead green electron gun (not repairable). 5/6 still ain't bad. once the cables come in and I get them all hooked up I'll post a picture, might have a few more PVMs by then too. I'll just be splitting the same image to all displays for now.

User avatar
studio460
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1904
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by studio460 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:15 pm

Yah, thanks! I have no idea why they're making brand-new, flatscreen, composite-monitors in 2021 either. I just perused eBay for some old terminal gear myself . . . picked up an Extron unit for next to nothing! Got an Extron 444 quad-PIP transcoder for $60 and a million-output, video-DA for $20!

Image
Extron PIP 444.

Image
CE Labs AV901HD.
Image

User avatar
Huba-Swift
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 9:20 pm
Location: Pretty much Vancouver, Canada

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by Huba-Swift » Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:07 pm

Cheap! It's reasons like this that it is sometimes nice not to be on the cutting edge. I should definitely look for one of those cheap switcher units for all the displays I've been picking up, though I don't have too many input sources as of now. Is there any difference to using a dedicated DA vs the video passthroughs that are sometimes on monitors?

User avatar
studio460
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1904
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by studio460 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:54 pm

I used to split composite-video all the time using cheap RCA Y-adapters from Radio Shack without any notable signal-loss, so DAs are probably unnecessary for short-runs. I bought the Syntonie DAs to use as video-multiples in the rack. Probably overkill, but they provide a tidy, in-rack solution for getting multiple outputs from my Structure, Fluxus Duo, etc.

Update: I'm just starting to install my new Syntonie modules and noticed the Syntonie DA is a bit more capable than a simple splitter/amp:

Image
Syntonie VU001 video quad distribution amplifier.

" . . . An internal connector allows internal sync to be distributed to the 4 ouputs to share sync to other systems, internal or external signal distribution is set using a jumper. Another jumper is used for termination of the internal sync signal if required. This module doesn’t need sync to operate." —Syntonie website.

I only found the $20 CE Labs multi-DA after I had already received the Syntonies, but I figured for $20, I could use it possibly for some feedback effects. Anyhow, for $20 I couldn't resist. To answer your question, using the monitor loop-output likely maintains the termination-loop and is probably fine.

I was originally on eBay hunting for a Panasonic AVE3, the favored all-in-one unit for circuit-bending, and came across all the old broadcast stuff. The Extron unit likely sold for over $1,000 when new. The 444 is more than a simple quad-splitter—you can adjust the size, aspect, and position of each video-input. Each input's color/tint and brightness/contrast may be individually controlled. Plus it has 20 built-in presets and allows for custom ones as well.

Image

Extron PIP 444 documentation: https://media.extron.com/public/downloa ... _444_B.pdf
Last edited by studio460 on Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:28 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Image

User avatar
studio460
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1904
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:35 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Re: Monitors for video-synthesis:

Post by studio460 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:11 pm

Finally found some silver Tiptop Happy Ending Kits at Control Voltage—I got four. I have the four Middle Atlantic 6U 19" wall-mount racks, where the dual-monitors can occupy the top 3Us with the HEKs below.

Just got the Syntonie CBV001 Circuit Bent Video Enhancer and quad-DA in the 6U-rack. I monitored the raw Structure-output on the first set of rack-monitors still sitting on my desk, sent its output to the Syntonie DA in the rack on the floor, piped its outputs to both the Fluxus Duo and CBV001, and their outputs to each rack-monitor. With all the visual feedback, I've decided every device should have its own display, and these dual-monitors are perfect for that task.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Post Reply

Return to “Video Synthesis”