ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

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freemod
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ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by freemod »

Hello,

I am trying to slave Live tempo track to the MI Marbles t2 cv clock, thru ES-8 input and “cv clock in” utility, on Live Suite 10.1.9

I have an issue on the “quality” of the cv gates coming into the cv tools utility: they frequently are not “regular” causing the BPM to reach a value of 999 for a bunch ms, or for 1/4 second ! I tried to set the threshold anyway... no way
I start to suspect that it is due to low level hum noise on the ES-8 inputs, or occasional clicks whose nature is totally unknown to me
The ES-8 is connected on ADAT ports (therefore NO aggregate device)
Does anybody have a hint ?
Can I try “to treat” the clock thru some of the Silent Way suite plug-ins, before feeding the “cv clock in” utility?
(Probably I can reshape the gates...)
I had purchased SW suite but never used...

(the original Marbles clock gates works fine within the eurorack domain, I also tried to use other cv clocks instead and it is just the same)

Thanks!
Geido
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os
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by os »

It could just be that the CV Clock In doesn't work well. Live has a history of syncing badly to other things.

Why not record the clocks coming in from the ES-8 as audio and take a look at them?
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by freemod »

thanks for your quick reply
I indeed had tried to record the cv clocks, of course before accessing the Cv Clock In utility in the signal path, and using the ES-8 inputs: the cv drawings in the audio track is not regular at all, showing few smears and slips which correspond graphically to the tempo accelerations and BPM boosts drawn into the tempo automation of the Master track.

I also tried multiplying the signal, in order to drive Plaits with the very same clocks during recording: while the cv clocks drew smears and slips into the audio track, Plaits snare didn't sound out of sync at all. I also tried replacing Marbles clocks with clocks from MN Richter Wogglebug, MN Maths... just the same issue...

Another simple observation:
If nothing is plugged into the input jacks of the ES-8, a low level backgorund noise can be detected on 2 channels (it can be seen in Live), and occasional clicks can be heard on other channels... Just don't know...
Thanks for helping
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os
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by os »

Sounds like an audio clocking issue. What's driving the ES-8's ADAT?
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by freemod »

ah yes, sorry
Focusrite Liquide Saffire 56
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by freemod »

Using the USB port obliged me to create an aggregate device causing furhter problems which I frankly cannot remember
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by freemod »

Should I try disconnecting the ADAT, using the USB port and re-booth without involving the LS56 ?
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by os »

It would be worth a try.
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by freemod »

Okay, the experiment is partially successful, plugging the ES-8 only via USB port, keeping the Focusrite interface disconnected, off and out of the job, the cv clocks are much more steady, no more excessive slips to 999bpm, though we still detect slighter oscillation (between 70bpm and 100bpm for few ms, which might add a human flavour to the musical purpose, but it is still too much).

Please tell me few precisions about my usual setup, that is when the Behringer ADA8000 and the ES-8 are respectively connected to A and B ADAT ports of the Focusrite LS56 and the LS56 is connected via Firewire to Thunderbolt to the Mac.

1) is it correct to switch on in the following order?
Focusrite LS56 -> Behringer ADA8000 -> ES-8 -> Mac (and to switch off on the opposite sense?)

After powering on I surprisingly find the frequency set to 48 Khz for the LS56 (both in the audio midi setup and in the Saffire MIxControl)
I always check and set it back to 44.1 Khz

2) Is it correct NOT to use the USB connection while the ES-8 is connected via ADAT ports ?
I never used the USB cable in this setup !

3) Does the ES-8 automatically set its clock source slave to the ADAT port (i.e. to the LS56 ) ?
Without the USB cable I obviously cannot check this...

During the test of the ES-8 via USB and the Focusrite interface off and disconnected, I notice that changing the clock source to ADAT (no ADAT cable connected) in the audio midi setup, and then setting it back to internal source, the utility set the frequency to 96 Khz..

I just wrote down everything I remarked, in case it means anything to you

Thanks
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by os »

when the Behringer ADA8000 and the ES-8 are respectively connected to A and B ADAT ports of the Focusrite LS56 and the LS56 is connected via Firewire to Thunderbolt to the Mac
Do you have a pair of ADAT cables going to each of the ADA8000 and the ES-8? Or just a cable from the ADA8000 to the LS56 and from the ES-8 to the LS56?

You need to think about your clocking setup here. What is clocking what?
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by freemod »

I have 2 cables for each unit, I/O and I get the Focusrite LS56 set to internal clock source (master), the peripherals (ADA8000 and ES-8) set to ADAT clock (slave)

In the meanwhile, I tried keeping the USB cable connected to the ES-8: this way I am able to verify that it is set to ADAT clock source. By the way, I am obliged to create an Aggregate Device in the AUDIO MIDI Set Up OS X utility.

I am quite satisfied now, the recorded cv clock is much more regular, no slips, though the cv clocks are not really steady,: the bpm counter keeps oscillating, constantly but for a bunch of ms, around +/- 10 BPM or +/- 20 BPM, it is for such short time frames that it is tolerable. Better, it is just the natural feeling of human perfomance which I aim at.

If this clock oscillation is not due to a clock issue of the audio interfaces connection, then it could be inherent in the cv source: probably the Mutable Instruments Marbles clock generator is analog... I hope !

One aspect not clear to me is that when the ES-8 is connected both via USB and ADAT, the I/O channels available appear doubled within the AUDIO MIDI Set Up: 4 analog inputs + 4 ADAT inputs, 8 analog outs + 8 ADAT outs (besides the 8 I/O of the LS56's ADAT B bus!)

Nevertheless, only the analog I/O channels receive/send (cv or audio) signals, I have activated everything in the preferences. (?)

I see that this doubling channels feature is typical, appearing on the web instructions as well. Is this feature for using as internal digital routing ?

Thanks a lot for this support
Geido
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by os »

One aspect not clear to me is that when the ES-8 is connected both via USB and ADAT, the I/O channels available appear doubled within the AUDIO MIDI Set Up: 4 analog inputs + 4 ADAT inputs, 8 analog outs + 8 ADAT outs (besides the 8 I/O of the LS56's ADAT B bus!)
If should be 8 ADAT inputs.

When used over USB the ES-8 is a 12-in 16-out device. The first 4/8 channels in/out are analogue, and the remaining 8/8 channels are the ADAT channels.
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by freemod »

Ok I have set 12 Ins/16 Outs now in the Audio MIDI SetUp utility, but still cannot understand the use of further channels whereas the physical I/O are
4 inputs /8 outputs
By the way, there must be a problem somewhere during start up: when reboothing (after having switched everything off) I often find ES-8 sample rate at 96kHz and/or LS56 at 48kHz, often LS 56 unavailable (grey color) in the aggregate device and therefore ES-8 set as master clock...

Does anybody else experienced this kind of issues on Audio MIDI Setup utility ?
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by os »

The additional channels are the ADAT ports - 8 in, 8 out.
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Re: ES-8 and cv Tools in Ableton Live 10

Post by freemod »

to whom it might concern

the ES-8 interface must be powered on AFTER the Master Clock interface (Focusrite LS56) and after the Mac, in order to avoid its sample rate set at 96kHz and its clock source as internal
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