Expanding Korg ms 20

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iJean
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Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by iJean » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:46 am

Hi!
Firstly I bought Arturia Minibrute, than I got vintage Korg Ms20. And Now I want to expand my sound. So maybe I could start building my system, using those two synths.

So, that is the idea:
I need some power supply for system, and maybe I could start with some oscilator. Because I can't use korg's keyboard (cv oct/volt -/- Hz/volt...), I should probably use Arturia (it also has velocity and aftertouch), so I need midi to CV. Than I need mixer, because VCO outputs are to hot, and I need volume potentiometer. Than i could connect: cv to VCO, wave to mix, mix to MS20 ext signal in, trigger to MS20 trig in. So now I could use korgs VCF and LFO.
Than: some wave from VCO to external signal processor, and I should get right CV for Korg. Than I could also use all MS 20 functionality.
And maybe, if I switch arturia to hold and plug output to Mix, I should get 4 osc synth.

Is it possible? :hihi:

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Post by addendum » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:24 am

This may help? https://www.modulargrid.net/e/ladik-u-2 ... -converter

But IMO the way to go is not aiming to use the MS 20 keyboard to control other synths, but to use a master controller with a MIDI2CV device that has both V/oct and Hz/V outs. For example Kenton have made several of these, they are now discontinued but you'll probably find some used ones if you post an ad in the WTB subforum.
Last edited by addendum on Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Plattform » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:58 am

For the Midi to Cv, I have this one : https://www.thomann.de/fr/kenton_pro_solo_mkii.htm

The Kenton Pro Solo mk2 it has V/Oct and Hz/V and 3 different gate and trigger type. It works well for the ms 20!

Here you can find the manual to see what setings you will need for what kind of synth:
http://www.kentonuk.com/kmanualspdf/psolo2man.pdf
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Post by iJean » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:28 pm

Thank you for fast answers! (I am new here)

I don't think I will need this converters, because I want to make (someday) stand alone system. Ms20 is only accessory for that time, when I don't have everything.
So I think, I won't need this, or?

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Post by addendum » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:19 pm

Well you had mentioned MIDI2CV yourself. Not sure if I'm following. If you want to avoid any conversion though, maybe you can find some Hz/V modules to control from your MS 20 and process its output. I think Metasonix has a few such modules?

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Post by Huba-Swift » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:11 pm

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but hopefully I do...
I own a MS-20, Minibrute, and a 5U modular. The Mini pairs quite well with the modular (just get some 1/4" to 3.5mm adaptor cables). I quite often use my Minibrute's sequencer to drive my modular since I don't have a dedicated sequencer. One thing to keep in mind about the Minibrute is that it does not send arp/seq data through the midi out, only through it's cv out, so I always use the cv outs on the Mini. About the patch you mentioned. I believe that the MS-20 also uses a different trigger. You could try this:
Mini's 1v/oct out -> 5Uosc 1v/oct in
5Uosc sine wave -> MS-20 External Signal Processor's Signal In
Same 5Uosc (other waveform) -> Mixer In
Minibrute Audio -> Mixer In
Mixer Out -> MS-20 Ext Signal In.
External Signal Processor CV out -> VCO1+2 CV In
All the pitches should track along with the Minibrute. I'm not 100% this will work, and it doesn't account for the Minibrute's gate signal, but I'll experiment with some patches myself and try to get back to you on what works.

Edit: I wasn't able to find a way to convert both the 1v/oct and the trigger type in one patch, so I resorted to using a 5U Envelope generator. I think the best use of the MS-20 in a 5U setup is just to use its Track & Hold, Modulation generator, and VCA, and Noise Generator. All of these work without any hitches in 5U. I suppose if you were to get
1x VCO
1x Filter
1x Envelope Generator
1x Multiple
and 1x Mixer, that would get you a good start with modular and it would allow you to take advantage of the MS-20s functions while using the Minibrute as a controller.

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Post by EPTC » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:07 pm

iJean wrote:I need some power supply for system, and maybe I could start with some oscilator. Because I can't use korg's keyboard (cv oct/volt -/- Hz/volt...)
But you -can- use the korg's keyboard, and then some. You just need conversion. In terms of 5U format size, what you're describing as being an interface/conduit between Korg and other devices is the Korg MS-02

http://www.matrixsynth.com/2015/04/korg ... erter.html

This would allow you to play the keyboard to control other synth gear, and have other synth gear control your Korg. It's increasingly less and less cheap, though.

If you go Eurorack there's a perfect product that emulates this nicely, the English Tear: http://www.analoguehaven.com/theharvestman/englishtear/

I recently spent a few months looking at the best product to just change Volts to Hz (not the other way around, to control a Metasonix R55) and got the Acidlab MS2, which is based on the same circuit as that one component of the Korg MS-02. It's lovely but they're tricky to find, but only manages half of what you're looking to achieve (v-Hz).

Seems like the English Tear will do what you're describing. You can get a small doepfer beauty case to power it, but then you'd be at $400 or so - So maybe looking to find a proper MS-02 would be more appropriate.

BTW, Arturia's minibrute is an excellent cv/gate keyboard. Sends out a nice hot 10v-12v gate for stubborn synths, even. If you get a converter for the korg and the brute, you'll have a really nice control station. (Though be mindful of attenuating that gate if the input only calls for 0-5v)

Edit to add:
iJean wrote:I don't think I will need this converters, because I want to make (someday) stand alone system. Ms20 is only accessory for that time, when I don't have everything.
Just saw that. Well, ha, you might find a lot of use in the MS20 if you get it interfacing with other modular. Converters can be used with everything else, too. Cheers.
Thanks for everyone who contributed to the Kickstarter! More news soon.


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Post by EPTC » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:27 pm

...
Last edited by EPTC on Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by EPTC » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:27 pm

Wow, addendum, I thought I'd seen all the hz/v converters - Hadn't seen the Ladik one - Thanks for the link!

Pardon the triple post here, too. I went to reply with this postscript and inadvertently posted this reply twice.

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Post by iJean » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:46 am

Huba-Swift wrote:I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but hopefully I do...
I own a MS-20, Minibrute, and a 5U modular. The Mini pairs quite well with the modular (just get some 1/4" to 3.5mm adaptor cables). I quite often use my Minibrute's sequencer to drive my modular since I don't have a dedicated sequencer. One thing to keep in mind about the Minibrute is that it does not send arp/seq data through the midi out, only through it's cv out, so I always use the cv outs on the Mini. About the patch you mentioned. I believe that the MS-20 also uses a different trigger. You could try this:
Mini's 1v/oct out -> 5Uosc 1v/oct in
5Uosc sine wave -> MS-20 External Signal Processor's Signal In
Same 5Uosc (other waveform) -> Mixer In
Minibrute Audio -> Mixer In
Mixer Out -> MS-20 Ext Signal In.
External Signal Processor CV out -> VCO1+2 CV In
All the pitches should track along with the Minibrute. I'm not 100% this will work, and it doesn't account for the Minibrute's gate signal, but I'll experiment with some patches myself and try to get back to you on what works.

Edit: I wasn't able to find a way to convert both the 1v/oct and the trigger type in one patch, so I resorted to using a 5U Envelope generator. I think the best use of the MS-20 in a 5U setup is just to use its Track & Hold, Modulation generator, and VCA, and Noise Generator. All of these work without any hitches in 5U. I suppose if you were to get
1x VCO
1x Filter
1x Envelope Generator
1x Multiple
and 1x Mixer, that would get you a good start with modular and it would allow you to take advantage of the MS-20s functions while using the Minibrute as a controller.
That is really usefull, thanks! It would be great, if you could try some patches! :hihi:
I think trigger works ok - I accidently connect (didn't know about different CVs), and it was ok (except the pitch :doh: )
EPTC wrote:But you -can- use the korg's keyboard, and then some. You just need conversion. In terms of 5U format size, what you're describing as being an interface/conduit between Korg and other devices is the Korg MS-02

http://www.matrixsynth.com/2015/04/korg ... te-convert er.html

This would allow you to play the keyboard to control other synth gear, and have other synth gear control your Korg. It's increasingly less and less cheap, though.

If you go Eurorack there's a perfect product that emulates this nicely, the English Tear: http://www.analoguehaven.com/theharvestman/englishtear/


I recently spent a few months looking at the best product to just change Volts to Hz (not the other way around, to control a Metasonix R55) and got the Acidlab MS2, which is based on the same circuit as that one component of the Korg MS-02. It's lovely but they're tricky to find, but only manages half of what you're looking to achieve (v-Hz).

Seems like the English Tear will do what you're describing. You can get a small doepfer beauty case to power it, but then you'd be at $400 or so - So maybe looking to find a proper MS-02 would be more appropriate.
Yeah, this is also an option. But Arturias keyboard have velocity and aftertouch (and just two octaves...). I saw dotcom MIDI controller and I could do something with that. You know, some vibrato on aftertouch, and filter modulation on velocity. But I don't know how.. Possible?

But if we are talking about the converters:
Where can I get MS-02?
Isn't there any cheaper way? (its a f***ing converter)


And just silly question:
I am from Europe. Where can I buy things? USA (synthesyzers.com etc.) or is there any better option?

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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by electricfence » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:33 pm

Bumping this topic to see if anyone knows of a stand-alone option for converting the Hz/v output of a MS-20 keyboard to V/oct.

I have been interested in adding another voice to my very modest MU setup, and it occurred to me that the MS-20 reissue might be a good option, especially as it could serve as a controller, if I could make the CV standards compatible.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Are the other patchpoints on the MS-20 compatible with MU?

Thanks for your help?

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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by KSS » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:48 pm

Korg's own MS02 is made for exactly that kind of situation.
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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by electricfence » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:00 pm

KSS wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:48 pm
Korg's own MS02 is made for exactly that kind of situation.
Yes, thank you! But I'm not sure that it is actually obtainable. I wonder if there's anything else that's currently in production.

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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by KSS » Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:15 pm

electricfence wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:00 pm
Yes, thank you! But I'm not sure that it is actually obtainable. I wonder if there's anything else that's currently in production.
They come up occasionally. I'd bet a decent search of stores -especially in Japan- could find you one.

They're also not too tough to duplicate. Doesn't take expert level DIY to bang out these circuits. Only the upper right and maybe upper left -and power- are essential to your described use. Though the others weren't put on by Korg for fluff, and are simple too.

You might ask int he DIY section of MW if anyone will build you a module or device?
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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by noddyspuncture » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:40 pm

I know it won't help you much with your problem but your thread reminded me of what I did with my MS20 & MS10.
Quite a while back I bolted them together and fitted a 5 octave keyboard from a Yamaha organ... and made some vids. ;)


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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by diophantine » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:14 pm

The "new" MS-20 FS apparently does not have V/Oct, which IMO is unfortunate...

Depending on your needs and what you have, using MIDI out from an MS-20 FS to a MIDI->CV unit on your 5U synth may be the cheapest/best option.

Other patch points (not pitch or gate/trig) can be patched together no problem.

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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by electricfence » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:18 am

KSS wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:15 pm
electricfence wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:00 pm
Yes, thank you! But I'm not sure that it is actually obtainable. I wonder if there's anything else that's currently in production.
They come up occasionally. I'd bet a decent search of stores -especially in Japan- could find you one.

They're also not too tough to duplicate. Doesn't take expert level DIY to bang out these circuits. Only the upper right and maybe upper left -and power- are essential to your described use. Though the others weren't put on by Korg for fluff, and are simple too.

You might ask int he DIY section of MW if anyone will build you a module or device?
Thanks for posting the schematic. I'm not a DIY person myself, but I'm sure I could find help if I really want to go this route. The main reason that I originally wanted to expand my 5U was to add some extra utilities (Corsynth C106) and sound shapers/processors (specifically, a CGS202 Serge Resonant EQ and a Corsynth C103 Frequency Divider/Multiplier). Then I factored in the cost of another Box 11 plus a beefier power supply, and I reconsidered, and the MS-20 started to look pretty sexy, as it would add another voice, several utilities, and (in a perfect world) it would include a controller with full-sized keys. I guess now I have to decide how badly I want the MS-20.

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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by electricfence » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:21 am

diophantine wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:14 pm
The "new" MS-20 FS apparently does not have V/Oct, which IMO is unfortunate...

Depending on your needs and what you have, using MIDI out from an MS-20 FS to a MIDI->CV unit on your 5U synth may be the cheapest/best option.

Other patch points (not pitch or gate/trig) can be patched together no problem.
I see it has a 5-pin MIDI In connection, and it looks like I could get note information out of it via USB, but then I guess I would have to find a box to convert MIDI USB to CV + Gate.

Thanks!

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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by diophantine » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:33 pm

You'd have better luck converting MIDI DIN (5-pin) to CV + Gate. Besides various modules available, there's standalone units like the CV.OCD, Doepfer Dark Link, and the various Kenton ones. I've never used any, but CV.OCD is the newest and seems quite well-liked.

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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by kindredlost » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:44 pm

noddyspuncture wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:40 pm
I know it won't help you much with your problem but your thread reminded me of what I did with my MS20 & MS10.
Quite a while back I bolted them together and fitted a 5 octave keyboard from a Yamaha organ... and made some vids. ;)

Straight from Planet Tom!! wow :woah:

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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by steffengrondahl » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:09 am

diophantine wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:14 pm
The "new" MS-20 FS apparently does not have V/Oct, which IMO is unfortunate...
It does! The total input tracks exponentially. And I believe the frequency and cutoff frequencies input are also exponential. So controlling the MS-20 (FS) from a V/oct keyboard should only require one to convert S-trig to V-trig - easily done with a Q125 signal processor or similar.

However, this also means, that you can not patch up filter tracking with the MS-20 own keyboard in a simple way. If you take the keyboard CV out and patch it into the Total of frequency cutoff input it will not work as the output is Hz/V and the input V/oct.

See http://www.korganalogue.net/korgms/mstt.html

I recently bought a MS-02 Interface, but haven't had time to play with it. Will try to integrate me MS-20 FS with my MU modular.

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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by KSS » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:56 am

Yes. As I understood it, the OP wants to use the CV out from the KBD with other exp'l gear.

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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by electricfence » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:05 am

KSS wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:56 am
Yes. As I understood it, the OP wants to use the CV out from the KBD with other exp'l gear.
That's right. (Although, I guess I'm the NecrOP, rather than the OP on this thread.) It is, of course, helpful that the new MS-20 can accept v/oct. signals, but one of the big things that appeals to me about the synth is that it comes with a full-sized keyboard that (with the right boxes) I could integrate with the modular.

Thanks for all the suggestions. After looking at various ways of converting the MS-20's keyboard signal to v/oct. (including two separate Kenton boxes), I started to think that maybe what I want is something like a Grandmother or Matriarch. I even drove down to the Moog factory store yesterday and spent a good 30 minutes auditioning the Matriarch (again), but (once again) it just didn't grab me. And it's a great synth. Clearly, I need to go on a synth vision quest before I buy anything.

Thanks again, everyone.

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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by steffengrondahl » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:38 am

^You're right :oops:
electricfence wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:33 pm
Bumping this topic to see if anyone knows of a stand-alone option for converting the Hz/v output of a MS-20 keyboard to V/oct.
Just curious: The MS-02 Interface has a log amp for converting Hz/V to V/oct and a antilog amp for converting V/oct to Hz/V. The Moog 902 amplifier (and it's clones like the dotcom Q108) has a linear and exponential mode. Is the MS-02 antilog amp and the 902 (Q108) in exp mode behaving more os less identical?

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Re: Expanding Korg ms 20

Post by diophantine » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:55 am

I thought the new one had MIDI out, but no... only MIDI in. Ugh...

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