Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

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eyeiaye
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Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by eyeiaye » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:25 pm

Just interested to know. Can you control Ciat Lonbarde with Buchla and vice versa. If so how does it work? Any limitations?

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by laserpalace » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:40 pm

You can definitely route CV to and from Ciat. I loved the 208 + Cocoquantus combo, but mainly for processing audio. Of course Ciat provides a lot of non-linear / chaotic leaning modulation options so it might be good to define what sort of control you are looking for. But generally speaking, from my experience they are 100% compatible and fun to work with in tandem.

The “how” depends on your goals and what Ciat instruments you are using. There may be issues with the androgynous (brown) jacks and the gates might not work as intended or may need attenuation.

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by dan_p » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:24 am

I used to have a bit of fun using the tetrax with banana synths and the banana version CQ was also great with other banana synths. Like laser palace suggests, some of the voltages are a bit weird. Perhaps the term "control" should be applied in the loosest sense. Guide may be a better description!

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by architexture » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:19 am

Just remember Buchla modules aren't intended to take negative CV so it's important to know what you are patching into the Buchla.

For example, the brown jacks on a rollz are not strictly inputs and output -10v spikes as clock. I typically clock my Plumbutter through the TMWTRS clock and load inputs and then patch the outs to rollz or gongs etc to get a clock synced beat.

For the most part a small negative voltage won't damage anything, but I would double check to be sure that what you are patching from Ciat-Lonbarde is in the +- 5v range or positive CV (such as the yellow outs from ultrasound or castles on cocoquantus)

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by eyeiaye » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:24 am

architexture wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:19 am
Just remember Buchla modules aren't intended to take negative CV so it's important to know what you are patching into the Buchla.

For example, the brown jacks on a rollz are not strictly inputs and output -10v spikes as clock. I typically clock my Plumbutter through the TMWTRS clock and load inputs and then patch the outs to rollz or gongs etc to get a clock synced beat.

For the most part a small negative voltage won't damage anything, but I would double check to be sure that what you are patching from Ciat-Lonbarde is in the +- 5v range or positive CV (such as the yellow outs from ultrasound or castles on cocoquantus)
This is great to know. I just picked up a Sidrax today on Reverb. Hmmmm any idea what plugs won’t work? Does CL not post specifics anywhere?

https://www.ciat-lonbarde.net/sidrax/index.htm

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by architexture » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:00 pm

"Two orange jacks, representing the press and release gestures on that bar in voltage.
One red jack, which is the pure triangle output of that oscillator.
Two green jacks, that are "glitch" inputs. They cause the boundary conditions of each oscillator to wire to the output of another. A modulation inspired by circuit bending.
One blue jack, an fm modulation input for that oscillator
."

So the inputs should receive anything you want to throw at them.
The red jack is audio out, meaning AC or bipolar, probably +- 5v
The orange jacks are going to be DC or likely +5v

If I had one, I would throw it on the oscilloscope and let you know. Overall however if you can convert the out from the red to a tinijax cable, you could use it for FM etc in your Buchla, The other jacks should all play along just fine.

Remember, CV outs are typically DC, audio outs are typically AC .

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by CliffordMilk » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:40 pm

I got some great results patching the preset voltages from the 208 into the speed CV of the Cocoquantus. It takes a little time to dial it in but works well.

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by architexture » Thu May 07, 2020 12:21 pm

For anyone that reads this issue at a later date, Just tested with a brand new oscilloscope

Here are the images. https://photos.app.goo.gl/Yw4pAo3zzX47WDSb8

Basic Gist......

Cocoquantus:
- All outputs produce voltage in 0-10v range, with the exception of audio,which is AC. Any CV out on Coco is suitable for Buchla / Lorre Mill compatibility

Plumbutter:
Reds from TMWTRS and Browns from Rolls produce -10v spikes **DO NOT** use them to trigger Lorre Mill or Buchla
Oranges from ANY location on PB are control voltage in the range of 0 - 10V and will work well as CV for Buchla / Lorre Mill
Reds / Whites from Gong / AVDog are AC audio range voltages. (-2v - +2v)
Gray from Gong is a strong AC voltage (-5v - +5v ) and is not safe for use with Buchla / Lorre Mill
Yellows from Ultrasound are very fast audio rate 0-10v and OK for use with Buchla / Lorre Mill

Deerhorn:
White produces AC in audio range
Red produces + 10v pulse spikes
Orange produces Hot CV from 2v - 10v

I don't have a quat/sid/tetrax but it is my understanding that they only produce positive CV voltages. Probably some audio range AC.

SO>>>>>>>>

Be careful with your Plumbutter. It's a negative voltage monster. Aside from that, Ciat Lonbarde should be safe and friendly.

Peter B stated "the brown nodes go slightly low, but you shouldn't use those to connect exterior anyway." or in other words, well you shouldn't patch a -10v spike into any outboard gear.

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by AllDiamondsForSale » Sat May 09, 2020 1:00 pm

architexture is right no browns no grays from the Plumbutter, Coco all in all out
good way for my to sync Easel and Plumbutter
Easel (master) yellow out into orange at the Deerhorn and then the reds as pulse out into somewhere at the Plum

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by Repeater » Sat May 09, 2020 1:06 pm

The output voltages tell you half of the story.

The Plumbutter and most other modern CL devices effectively run on 9V once regulated or when using a battery and yet can handle negative voltages and even shorting the outputs together. The reason is high output impedance (10K generally) and inputs that connect to one or more of the following: (1) current sources (2) divide-by-ten attenuators (3) high impedance opamp followers with clamps. According to the schematics on the Lorre Mill site and conversations I've had with Will, his designs seem to follow the same conventions.

The brown jacks on the Plumbutter have no current limiting resistor and directly connect to transistor bases, so they're more likely to be damaged themselves if you connect them to a low impedance output from other synthesizers than capable of causing damage. Patch these through resistors when connecting to other devices of unknown properties to protect your Plumbutter. You can definitely patch them to other devices, but Peter has reason to offer caution.

The V1 Double Knot schematic doesn't appear to have output resistors on its sequencer emitter outputs so I can see how those could be vulnerable. FWIW, my Double Knot had resistors grafted on between the sequencer emitter outputs and the output jacks so it seems Will figured this out after the first PCBs were made. The new version has 10K resistors here on board.

Plumbutter Schematic:
http://ciat-lonbarde.net/plumbutter/labrolzpapersz.pdf

V1 Double Knot Schematic:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iyb ... iPI3Y/edit

V2 Double Knot Schematic:
http://lorre-mill.com/assets/Double_Kno ... Rev1_2.pdf

Mosstone Schematic:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uqf ... Sq6zg/edit

For triggering Buchla or Lorre Mill stuff without hiccups, you might want to consider building or buying some comparators. Then you can guarantee a positive output in a useful voltage range. An additional potential benefit of using comparators with the Orange Rollz outputs is that they'll clean up the sloppy rise times.
Last edited by Repeater on Sat May 09, 2020 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by batchas » Sat May 09, 2020 1:43 pm

AllDiamondsForSale wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:00 pm
good way for my to sync Easel and Plumbutter
Easel (master) yellow out into orange at the Deerhorn and then the reds as pulse out into somewhere at the Plum
I have no Easel, but you mention Easel is master, yellow out going into orange banana on Plumb.
But orange bananas on the Plumbutter are outputs, not inputs.
So you're sending an output to an output :despair:

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by AllDiamondsForSale » Sat May 09, 2020 2:09 pm

it´s possible to use the orange on the DH also as an input for the DH

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by batchas » Sun May 10, 2020 10:27 am

AllDiamondsForSale wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 2:09 pm
it´s possible to use the orange on the DH also as an input for the DH
Well. This is not the first thing I'd have thought of to sync my plumbutter as the orange banana outputs up to +9V. But ok...

Means you don't use the DH then, not moving your hand or whatever near it, so the orange out remains at 0V, is this what you mean?
I'm intrigued.

Pers. I use for instance the pulse out of the 248r to clock the sequencer on the Plumbutter. Or a voltage from 281e. But of course there are more possibilities on a bigger system like the 200e than on the Easel.

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by batchas » Sun May 10, 2020 1:47 pm

Here's an ex. I did an hour ago after taking the Plumbutter to the Buchla table.
Short video not in HD cause I can't upload anything longer.

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by weinglas » Sun May 10, 2020 3:00 pm

Works even with the older pre-banana Ciat Lonbarde stuff

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by AllDiamondsForSale » Sun May 10, 2020 4:09 pm

Well. This is not the first thing I'd have thought of to sync my plumbutter as the orange banana outputs up to +9V. But ok...

mmmh... i get some doubts now... but it works pretty well for me, yes...
the yellow pulse out from the easel is to long for syncing the TMWTRS... its fun but not straight
it works also fine with an short pulse out from the BOB Card ( if you have them )

Means you don't use the DH then, not moving your hand or whatever near it, so the orange out remains at 0V, is this what you mean?
I'm intrigued.

good point... maybe i´ll cut off the antenna ?!
seriously i hate that deerhorn... i never learn or was able to ask from it what i want...
that waving around and at the same time controlling the volume of it is ducking annoying for me


other thing: i really like you stuff ! and your Masai/Plumbutter video was one reason for me to buy that beauty !

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by musicaespressiva » Tue May 12, 2020 7:06 am

I agree, beautiful work on Masai/Plumbutter video

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by batchas » Tue May 12, 2020 2:21 pm

AllDiamondsForSale wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 4:09 pm
batchas wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 10:27 am
Means you don't use the DH then, not moving your hand or whatever near it, so the orange out remains at 0V, is this what you mean?
I'm intrigued.
good point... maybe i´ll cut off the antenna ?!
I don't know. It's just that moving the hand near the antenna produces a signal up to +9V at the orange outputs and also a pulse at the red output. So I was wondering how this positive voltage acts on the signal you're sending in from the easel, but for sure the easel out is protected.
What I don't know is how the signal you send to the orange input is then present at the red output and transformed, so you can use it on the PB (you say it's too long if not transformed), in despite of the fact that Peter surely protected these outputs.
I read in the PB manual that in early versions the orange banana was hard-wired to the purple input. This could be an explanation if yours is like this I'm only making assumptions here, not sure at all. Maybe when you send a clock in the orange in, it also flows into the purple, FMing the oscillator. And if the balance is set so that there's always a signal from the deerhorn oscillator at the deerhorn outputs, then the incoming pulse from the easel is also carried to the red out, with some offset. Maybe... Who knows.

And before I forget: thanx a lot for the 2 last comments about the PB masai video. I was discovering the Plumbutter back then and I like very much these moments too :tu:

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by szzdz » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:16 pm

architexture wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 12:21 pm
For anyone that reads this issue at a later date, Just tested with a brand new oscilloscope

Here are the images. https://photos.app.goo.gl/Yw4pAo3zzX47WDSb8
this is super helpful. have a plumbutter heading my way soon to pair with a music easel (208p) and want to clear up a few things. :eek:

what is the safe range of negative voltage if the grey gongue (-5-5v) outs are a problem (maybe not a problem for the easel?) but the white/red outs aren’t? and are the deerhorn white/snare/dust outputs safe to patch as well? they look comparably hot to the grey gongues.

and looking at this picture from mudlogger - is the reason this works (red mwrs, brown rollz > 254) because buchla is powered off of 15v? would this not be okay with my euro verbos control voltage processor powered off of 12v that does the same thing?
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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by architexture » Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:28 pm

It has nothing to do with the power and everything to do with the 254. In this case the 254 is a clone, and likely built with diode protection on the inputs.

The voltages present at the inputs are then scaled up into a positive range and sent out to the 281.

IMHO you should NOT clock the Buchla using brown outs from Rollz, but hey, it's your 1000's of dollars. Do what you're comfortable with, and if you let the magic smoke out, then don't do that again.

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by szzdz » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:13 pm

architexture wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:28 pm
It has nothing to do with the power and everything to do with the 254. In this case the 254 is a clone, and likely built with diode protection on the inputs.

The voltages present at the inputs are then scaled up into a positive range and sent out to the 281.

IMHO you should NOT clock the Buchla using brown outs from Rollz, but hey, it's your 1000's of dollars. Do what you're comfortable with, and if you let the magic smoke out, then don't do that again.
thanks! will definitely play it safe when possible. wonder if the verbos euro modules are diode protected... and any word on deerhorn whites/snare/dust being buchla compatible?

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Re: Controlling Ciat Lonbarde with Buchlas and vice versa.

Post by architexture » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:38 pm

Euro should be absolutely fine. All signals in euro are bipolar.

Serge accepts negative voltage
Euro accepts negative voltage
Buchla is positive voltage only
Lorre mill is positive voltage only

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