Noisebug press release / Buchla future

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by KSS » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:23 pm

Tonefloat01 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:36 am
Why not bring all of the 3rd party manufacturers under the BUSA umbrella?
Because then BUSA would be 'forced' into endorsing products they might not want to endorse.
It’s Buchla & Associates right? So why not make the interested 3rd party module makers new ‘associates’ where they can use official Buchla faceplates and have their modules sold on the main BUSA store site?
They do that already. The difference is that you're supposing they must, should or will do so for all 3rd party offers. And that makes no sense for them.

This way 3rd party module makers can leave the marketing and sales aspect to BUSA and BUSA can lean on some very inventive and forward thinking builders that bring new people into this format to use them?
Again they do this already. But to ask or expect them to do it for everyone who wants to sell a BU module is simply not a good plan from their standpoint.

I know, I know this sounds very United Nations but I think it would solve a lot of problems with what you are all discussing here.
It solves a few problems but creates larger ones for BUSA. That's not a good thing. Essentially you're asking them to act as a BU UN. But unlike the UN, BUSA is not a govt agency created to sponsor and support all the potential members of its BU universe. They're a business. They get to decide who they want to work with and who they want to support. As mritenburg said, this is about defining the source of products within the BU format, not the quality or closeness to historical precedents of B&A, Buchla, BEMI and BUSA.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by KSS » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:38 pm

shoegazer86 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:28 pm
The real question we should be asking here if we all really want to split hairs... Is that is it a Buchla and Associates product, or is it a Buchla USA product? The two entities are not one in the same and should not be confused as such.
Is this true? There's a pretty clear line -through Don- from B&A to BEMI. And then from BEMI to BUSA. So I don't see how you can say BUSA have no claim on B&A panel and PCB designs. Those exist under copyright, and that isn't removed by the details in the trademark and name posts here.

We also know from an ethical standpoint that the one thing Don repeatedly said while alive was that copying the circuits is one thing -adding that he didn't understand why anyone would want to clone old things- but copying his panels was something he was very vocal and clear about.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Tonefloat01 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:46 pm

I was thinking more of bringing larger established manufacturers like Keen and Studio H into the fold and not someone who makes a module or two a week and lists them on Reverb and/or EBay as ‘Buchla’ modules.
The Studio H modules look almost exactly like Buchla modules anyway from my standpoint so from what I’m gathering from this conversation is that they should be in trouble here unless they have some agreements with BUSA.
At least Keen abandoned the traditional Buchla look and have created their own aesthetic which works and I think complements the Buchla modules.
Out of all the available Buchla format (BU) modules the Keen ones are the only ones that I think are inventive and bringing something new to the table (format) and if I was BUSA I’d wouldn’t do anything to rock their boat.
I only have a LEM4 so I don’t have much skin in this game but as an outsider after that last Podcast I’m left wondering about what if any 3rd party modules I could purchase that would work with an expanded Skylab system if I was to purchase one here soon. From my impression it seems that it has to be 100% BUSA modules in a BUSA case with BUSA power and probably BUSA cables or all bets are off which leaves me cold frankly.
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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by pelican » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:04 am

I don’t care about noise bug carrying Buchla or not. Buchla has no web presence in the US now. Authorized dealers now =1, and their web shop has been down for months
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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by PDT » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:26 am

In the end it's just a name.
Chances are high, once the 200 is getting released, it's a clone module anyway.

2 years ago the plan was to rebrand the "R" versions as "official" 200 modules.
Since then I have also heard BUSA reached out to at least one other "clone" company.

If they don't care, why would anyone care?

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by ArguZ » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:29 am

Because licensing is a far more lucrative business model than producing.
And BUSA endorsed clone kits make money for BUSA so it's imperative to control the supply.
It's quite simple really...
If it looks like a Buchla and sound like a Buchla, it should be sold by Buchla.
That's what "control the global supply" means.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by PDT » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:54 am

But then you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you.
Talking bad about the clones and then rebranding these very exact clones?

Why should anyone hold back buying the clone now? Just because of the faceplate?

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by tIB » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:25 am

PDT wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:54 am
But then you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you.
Talking bad about the clones and then rebranding these very exact clones?

Why should anyone hold back buying the clone now? Just because of the faceplate?
Unnoficial clones are bad, official clones are good? Unless the mems project is linked?

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by PDT » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:32 am

That's already an unless.

Question would also be if the "original" would reference its origin.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Sinamsis » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:40 am

pelican wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:04 am
I don’t care about noise bug carrying Buchla or not. Buchla has no web presence in the US now. Authorized dealers now =1, and their web shop has been down for months
I just bought and received a 251e from them without a problem.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by PDT » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:16 am

I can see that BUSA would not want anyone to sell a clone of what they currently have available.
That would be the 208. But even then I think it's tricky. The old BUSA 208 is not produced anymore. The 208c has it's own identity.
It was a very good move to not only update it mechanically, but also to enhance the features in a good way.
If nostalgia is not the driving force, I guess a good amount of people will appreciate the new design. I wish it would come in a suitcase, but that's a different story.

Clearly, Don didn't care about clones of his old work because he wasn't selling these things anyway. He didn't lose anything.

BUSA would be happy to have a full 200 lineup.
But they don't have that.
Technically, they lose just as much as Don did, nothing.
Still, if BUSA can't sell it, no one should sell it. Even though it would be totally legal as long as there is no copyright violation.
BUSA would not talk bad about their own products publicly, but they do talk bad about the clones. Only to prevent that someone who put a lot of effort into a totally legal product could actually sell it. It gives the maker of the clone a bad reputation while, at the same time, it should make the buyer feel like the product is not "right".
Where is this "right" to the community? The people who dedicate themselves to the subject of building or using these instruments.

Once that exact same clone module is rebranded, it will publicly be the most authentic 200 replica on the market.

Yes, that's business. I wouldn't consider it good business and it's definitly not good in any ethical way.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:58 am

Sinamsis wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:40 am
I just bought and received a 251e from them without a problem.
Congratulations!
Finally had the courage to enter the "The reality of what we are facing" thread. Glad you stopped holding your tongue at some point.
:hail:

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Sinamsis » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:35 pm

mermott wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:58 am
Sinamsis wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:40 am
I just bought and received a 251e from them without a problem.
Congratulations!
Finally had the courage to enter the "The reality of what we are facing" thread. Glad you stopped holding your tongue at some point.
:hail:
Haha, thanks I think. And yeah I'm stoked about the 251e. Ordered directly from BUSA. It said something about a 2-4 weeks lead time but I don't think it was even 2 weeks, probably closer to one before it shipped.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:58 pm

Lucky you, had to wait four months for my system. BUT i could chat with Don. :)

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:09 pm

PDT wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:16 am
Once that exact same clone module is rebranded, it will publicly be the most authentic 200 replica on the market.
If 200 series reissues are done in conjunction with the M.E.M.S. Project I think you can't argue that these will be the most deeply researched clones. Costs or manufacturing related choices unconsidered, and that may of course inflect the result sensibly, that would most probably make the official clones the most interesting ones by far don't you think ?

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by triplizard » Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:13 pm

Sinamsis wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:40 am
pelican wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:04 am
I don’t care about noise bug carrying Buchla or not. Buchla has no web presence in the US now. Authorized dealers now =1, and their web shop has been down for months
I just bought and received a 251e from them without a problem.
Yeah I was wondering about that comment too. I mean, they have a website that features the products they make and you can buy said products through that website. I have bought 5 modules from them via that process this year and other than being told that one thing I ordered wouldn’t be available for some time have had no issues.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:15 pm

PDT wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:34 am
In order to plan what is good for the company, you should understand the market. I would consider this mandatory. For a niche product that usually means you should understand the community and do what is good for the community.
That definitely means appointing a MW minister !

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by KSS » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:13 pm

PDT wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:34 am
In order to plan what is good for the company, you should understand the market. I would consider this mandatory. For a niche product that usually means you should understand the community and do what is good for the community.
This is true. But it misses what Steve Jobs understood which propelled Apple to its present status. That the community may not be the best source of knowing what's good for them. Over and over, paradigm shifting products were created in-house that were *not* community selected or sourced.

MW member paults pointed out one of these in a post awhile back. While he worked with Blackberry refining the sound of their phones, Apple introduced the iphone in ads where it was never used as a phone. Jobs saw the future and it didn't come from the community. Buchla was built by Don the same way.

The choice to do 208C is at least a little bit along these lines. While it could be seen as simply evolutionary, it is also clearly innovative. If not from a product standpoint at least from a business perspective. This will be crucial to BUSA going forward.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by PDT » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:37 am

I agree with everything you say about the 208C.

I think it's pretty hard to compare BUSA with Apple, though.
A company in the size of not even a handful of people vs one of the biggest techcompanies.
Even if I try to ignore that, there is still a difference. Apple is aiming at the mainstream. The Buchla community is definitely not mainstream, and in case of the 100 and 200 series, they already did the development.

I don't know too much about Apple but I also never heard that Apple talked bad about a 3rd Party product and afterwards glorified that product as their own.

At least in the music instrument business, it is bad behavior to publicly talk bad about competitors. Comparing products is actually the furthest a company should go. And even then, it is usually best to focus on your own strengths.

If the competition is building completely legal products, the best way to beat the competition is to have the better product.
This could mean the better quality product or the better priced product.

In case of the 200 series modules, technically BUSA is not in competition with anyone. Not as long as they don't have a product.

At the same time, it has been mentioned before and can be seen in the Eurorack market, competition increases the sales.
I don't think Dieter Doepfer ever regretted to keep the Eurorack open for everyone.
Then what reasons are there to even be scared of competition?

At this point there simply is no reason for BUSA to talk bad about anyone who isn't violating their copyright.
I could understand it, if Don would have acted like this. For him this was also on a very personal level.
In case of BEMI and BUSA it was a business decision to invest money in order to take over the name and own the rights to certain products.
Clones were already the reality of things when BEMI started business, and the market was even bigger when BUSA went on.
Neither BEMI nor BUSA lost any protection of their products. The 100 and 200 were never part of the deal, anyway.
The situation was very clear.
Both, BEMI and BUSA had the confidence to do it.
I would definitely say that both companies were given a chance.
I even think they were welcomed by the community.

Now there is no need for BUSA to act as if anyone had stolen their family crest.

It is 2021. We have a lot of 24dB ladder circuits out there. Sequencers have a common layout just as most other modules in our modular life. Many musicians find comfort in the common VCO-VCF-VCA concept.
We have all those different cars that still use very similar designs.
This is not the Wild West, there is patent and copyright laws. As long as these are not violated, no one should shoot at people or motivate other people to shoot at them.

Come up with good products or respectfully approach people that already have a product or are working on one.

On top of that, Black Market Modular once produced a Eurorack module called Colour Palette. This module integrated PCBs, that are available for the DIYRE 500 modules, into the eurorack format. The DIYRE Color platform is mostly known for using famous circuits that were found in studio gear like Neve 1081, UREI 1176 or Pultec EQP-1a.
This is up to personal interpretation, but to me it looks weird to be ok with clones for one business, but not for the other, since both, Buchla USA and Black Market Modular are operated by the same person.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by shoegazer86 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:58 am

PDT wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:37 am
I think it's pretty hard to compare BUSA with Apple, though.
I would also agree with this statement - maybe expand on it.

In the beginning - Don's very creation of the 100 series system was in fact "crowd-sourced" in the same sense that people make feature requests on this very forum. He began making Buchla modules in direct response to the requests of Sender and Subotnick and the system itself took shape due to the growing needs of the SFTMC.

I don't believe that Don specifically had any sort of vision for a complete system at this phase, since a lot of these modules were just problem solvers for composers when they decided they needed a module to do XYZ. Fast forward to the 200 series, and we start to see Don's true masterpiece evolve. Finally a system with vision and cohesiveness. BUT, he never ignored the needs and wants of the public "forum". His delays came about after seeing Marshall and Eventide's offerings at NAMM. They were direct answers to these effects. Rosenboom came to him with requests to use brainwaves to change the parameters of the system. He still was able to directly work with musicians when needs arose.
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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mutierend » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:35 pm

Tonefloat01 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:46 pm
.... I don’t have much skin in this game but as an outsider after that last Podcast I’m left wondering about what if any 3rd party modules I could purchase that would work with an expanded Skylab system if I was to purchase one here soon. From my impression it seems that it has to be 100% BUSA modules in a BUSA case with BUSA power and probably BUSA cables or all bets are off which leaves me cold frankly.
FWIW, the busboards in my 201e-24 were circa 2015 and they were way, way underpowered for my selection of modules. The mix of a 268e, 282e, 287e, DPO, and CSR was pretty taxing on my system. Throw in the 296e and 252e and I'm surprised it didn't force a neighborhood blackout. BUSA replaced the power thingies on the busboards and my system roared to life again. I use Pomona cables with no problems. ;)

The case and power designs that BUSA use haven't changed much since the B&A days, for better or for worse. B&A didn't anticipate Teensy and 3rd party modules that support the I2C bus. It was a closed ecosystem for years and I guess it technically kind of still is. Keen and Studio.H have pushed the envelope with complex modules that leverage modern technology. Steffen at SAModular redesigned his busboards at least twice to accommodate modern needs.

Of course, every module is different and every build of a module is different, so your mileage may vary.
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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by shoegazer86 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:22 pm

Just wait until you see MEMS busboards, they will burn us at the stake.

Times, they are a changin'
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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by mermott » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:21 pm

shoegazer86 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:22 pm
they will burn us at the stake.
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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by momo » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:18 pm

Although most lay people will not know a hoot about power in Buchla cabs (and thus likely wonder why they are so expensive for bent pieces of metal with wood end cheeks), quite a few of us here on Muffs will know quite a bit about the DC-DC converters, their mounting making the centre boat double as a heat sink, switch mode Cincon PSUs, the I2c bus, pull up resistors and the like. It could be interesting to note that there is nothing special about the voltages whizzing around in the 200e system; and that the data bus they employed is not proprietary. And that their own modules can cause havoc with the bus causing lockups and/or have been known to blow a cap or two (I'm thinking 252e). These are thus shared problems we solve; it is not a situation that BUSA products act impeccably, while third party modules and clones do not. In any event, when the 200e series was announces, the FAQ page talked about compatibility with the 200 series (they pitched the idea that 200 series users e.g. might want to add a 225e to their cab). So assuming 200 series clones are not departing from the schematics in those regards, it would also be misplaced in BUSA looked to lay blame on those products, without first investigating, which they might be doing for all I know.

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Re: Noisebug "just say no" press release

Post by Tonefloat01 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:16 pm

Well the first case manufacturers that guarantee that their products are compatible with both BUSA 200e modules (and the preset manager) and existing 3rd party modules are going to be in a good position for people who’d like to have modules other than strictly official Buchla offerings.
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