modules with 3.5mm TRS MIDI jacks

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kay_k
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Post by kay_k » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:05 am

prove of concept:

[video][/video]

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revtor
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Post by revtor » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:16 am

Another one for the list:
Faderfox SC4 uses 3.5 mini for MIDI. Not sure of the pinout.

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:18 am

revtor wrote:Another one for the list:
Faderfox SC4 uses 3.5 mini for MIDI. Not sure of the pinout.
He was actually the first one who did that in the recent years. Before Korg or Arturia! The mapping is not Korg though.
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Post by kay_k » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:17 pm

Malekko replied to my inquiry - Arturia (Novation) config

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Post by 1010music » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:06 pm

Thanks for putting this together.

I can confirm that the Novation Launchpad Pro uses the Arturia style. I'm not sure about the other Novation gear.

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Post by Sandrine » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:39 am

The SDS Digital Reflex LiveLoop has MIDI in behind the panel stereo TRS with switchable polarity on tip & ring, ground on collar.
The SDS_VCO has MIDI output option behind the panel stereo TRS with hot tip, signal ring, and ground on collar.
The SDS WiFiMIDI MIDI output uses a mono plug with hot+signal on tip and ground on collar on the panel.

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Post by subdo » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:10 pm

kay_k wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:The solution is easy, which means that the problem is stupid to begin with. ~sigh~
:deadbanana:

absolutely. someone has fucked this up for us. let's find him!
:hyper:
The someone in this case is Korg. They always do this shit. Same thing with the Hz/v "standard" and the weird sync with the volcas. We were warning about this years ago. Once Korg broke convention all of a sudden it became a choice manufacturers had to make and the incompatibilities started rolling in.

http://cdm.link/2015/08/used-stereo-min ... bles-midi/

:redneck:

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Post by kay_k » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:29 am

Sandrine wrote:The SDS Digital Reflex LiveLoop has MIDI in behind the panel stereo TRS with switchable polarity on tip & ring, ground on collar.
The SDS_VCO has MIDI output option behind the panel stereo TRS with hot tip, signal ring, and ground on collar.
The SDS WiFiMIDI MIDI output uses a mono plug with hot+signal on tip and ground on collar on the panel.
added!
For the WifiMidi .. when the user uses a stereo cable the ring floats, right?
Or do you use a jack that puts GND there?
doesn't that mean that the Optocoupler LED doesn't light up? I'm a bit worried that you can't connect it straight to another 3.5mm midi with a stereo cable.

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Post by kay_k » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:09 pm

So .. I thought the third way is not possible but I was proven wrong!
I ordered just a MFB Nanozwerg Pro because it's cheap and I really wanted to know.
They chose out of rolling the dice maybe or idiocy to put one pin of the loop on the sleeve, the tip being the other. The ring goes nowhere it seems.
The SQ1 gets its VCC shorted to GND that way and switches off. The Beatstep Pro just does nothing.
man am I pissed about that.

:deadbanana:

The sound of that machine is nice btw. but I'll send it back for this shit.

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Post by flashheart » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:46 pm

kay_k wrote:So .. I thought the third way is not possible but I was proven wrong!
I ordered just a MFB Nanozwerg Pro because it's cheap and I really wanted to know.
They chose out of rolling the dice maybe or idiocy to put one pin of the loop on the sleeve, the tip being the other. The ring goes nowhere it seems.
The SQ1 gets its VCC shorted to GND that way and switches off. The Beatstep Pro just does nothing.
But really, what were they supposed to do? (well at least follow one 'standard' I suppose...)

Frankly, none of these interfaces should ever be referred to as MIDI, if it's not a DIN plug it isn't MIDI. I wish review sites would stop referring to them as MIDI. They're not anywhere in the MIDI specification, and the fact they're all different means nobody has specified anything and it's not a standard.

If it's not in the spec it's not MIDI, end of. :bang:
I'm not buying a maths though, not my idea of fun...

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Post by kay_k » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:53 pm

flashheart wrote:
kay_k wrote:So .. I thought the third way is not possible but I was proven wrong!
I ordered just a MFB Nanozwerg Pro because it's cheap and I really wanted to know.
They chose out of rolling the dice maybe or idiocy to put one pin of the loop on the sleeve, the tip being the other. The ring goes nowhere it seems.
The SQ1 gets its VCC shorted to GND that way and switches off. The Beatstep Pro just does nothing.
But really, what were they supposed to do? (well at least follow one 'standard' I suppose...)

Frankly, none of these interfaces should ever be referred to as MIDI, if it's not a DIN plug it isn't MIDI. I wish review sites would stop referring to them as MIDI. They're not anywhere in the MIDI specification, and the fact they're all different means nobody has specified anything and it's not a standard.

If it's not in the spec it's not MIDI, end of. :bang:
technically it is MIDI - it's the protocol and the physical layer (except maybe MFB) just a different connector - that might go into the next revision of the standard. stop splitting hairs :guinness:
But really - if you make a module in 2016/17 with TRS Midi, would't you at least check what other people do?
When I had the Idea to the WK3 and learned that Korg is doing things differently I was devastated. BUT AT LEAST I HAVE MADE MY HOMEWORK: read about it, thought about it and made the changes.
MFB clearly has not or they decided to make things super incompatible on purpose.

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Post by Shledge » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:09 pm

I don't think people will be buying them with the thought that you can put arturia/korg MIDI connectors into it, especially when multiple standards already exist. Nothing is compatible without DIY because you know, there isn't much thought apart from being adapters.

In fact this is the first time I've seen someone whinge about this, let alone send modules back over it - why not use it's own connector or roll your own?

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Post by kay_k » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:53 pm

Shledge wrote:I don't think people will be buying them with the thought that you can put arturia/korg MIDI connectors into it, especially when multiple standards already exist. Nothing is compatible without DIY because you know, there isn't much thought apart from being adapters.

In fact this is the first time I've seen someone whinge about this, let alone send modules back over it - why not use it's own connector or roll your own?
well because ideally we could all resort to 1€ cables and be done. No soldering or buying (including) of 5€ adapters (even 2 if both are different) AND a cable AND remembering which adapter goes where. Then you have DIN jacks and fat midi cables hanging over your rack.
Being able to just patch would be fun, no?

First time you've heard it is because it is relatively new but the number of modules/gear with this sort of jack is growing by the day. Soon it will be a bigger problem.

I was more whining about the fact that MFB decided to use the sleeve of a cable for anything else than plain GND. This is just wrong. Also when there two different ways to do something in an industry to do something WHY do you need a third?
going further: there are 3 signals and three places on the connector, this makes it 6 combinations now. Before today I thought it's only 2 (believing sleeve is shield/GND).

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Post by Shledge » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:47 pm

AFAIK Expert Sleepers uses a similar method that MFB uses too. That said, MFB is no stranger to weird standards - my MFB Synth II for example uses a stereo input for CV/gate, which you need a splitter if you want to control them.

MIDI cables going straight in would be ideal, but it's obvious it's not seen as important when most people will just use CV/Gate. I'd more likely just DIY some adapters if I really wanted MIDI, but I haven't really needed to outside my BSP.

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:52 am

It is important because if everyone used one standard we could all use TRS cables and be done with DIN.
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Post by Shledge » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:16 am

The use is nonexistent outside the modular world, really.

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:18 am

Shledge wrote:The use is nonexistent outside the modular world, really.
So FaderFox, who is the first person I know who did this, doesn't count apparently? It's happening whether some people like it or not. Because it's convenient.
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Post by flashheart » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:34 am

Shledge wrote:The use is nonexistent outside the modular world, really.
Apart from Korg, Novation, Arturia...
I'm not buying a maths though, not my idea of fun...

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Post by Shledge » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:34 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:So FaderFox, who is the first person I know who did this, doesn't count apparently?
Not really, no. Pretty much all non-modular synths use DIN sockets or in recent years, USB MIDI. Globally enforcing an upcoming standard that's pretty much exclusive to the niche market of modular synths is a bit silly.
It's happening whether some people like it or not. Because it's convenient.
If people are willing to ditch vintage synths with DIN-based MIDI.

Personally I think having it all TRS would make sense, along with advancing the MIDI to modern requirements (hurry up MIDI 2.0), but again there is a reason why it has stayed the same for so long.

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:31 am

Shledge wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:So FaderFox, who is the first person I know who did this, doesn't count apparently?
Not really, no. Pretty much all non-modular synths use DIN sockets or in recent years, USB MIDI. Globally enforcing an upcoming standard that's pretty much exclusive to the niche market of modular synths is a bit silly.
That's why you have TRS-to-MIDI cables. By the way, MIDI Association is making the TRS MIDI into standard so you should take that into account.
It's happening whether some people like it or not. Because it's convenient.
If people are willing to ditch vintage synths with DIN-based MIDI.

Personally I think having it all TRS would make sense, along with advancing the MIDI to modern requirements (hurry up MIDI 2.0), but again there is a reason why it has stayed the same for so long.
[/quote]

Again, it's not going to replace DIN but it's happening either way, same as smaller MIDI DIN options are available for some devices. The reason why MIDI is still at 1.0 has nothing to do with the plugs - the discussions for going 2.0 has been there for ages, it's not as simple as making your own MIDI-to-TRS cable which everyone with a solder gun can do.

This has a lot of perks which are not easy to diss: the MIDI plus are now smaller and it's easier to patch MIDI cables between devices. With so many small devices around (SQ1, PO's etc) I can see this TRS replacement becoming very common. It already begun outside the modular world - it's just that Eurorack needs it because of space.
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Post by kay_k » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:57 am

added the LPZW Schleußig

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Post by kay_k » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:23 am

added Flame Quad-CV-Recorder

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Post by kay_k » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:35 am

added Flame 4Vox 2016 version, not yet updated on MG but the new version has a 3.5mm jack in Arturia style.

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Post by kay_k » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:04 am

added 1010 Music Toolbox

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:07 am

The SDS VCO can be soldered either way, so it's not Arturia.
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